2026 Quad Max EPA Certification w/ specs (range, capacity, etc.)

[Jonger1150]

I was low probability hoping 2026 would bring 800V charging. Guess not.

This has been known as a no-go for at least 6 months to maybe a year or so.

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[sub]

That's the major benefit of 800v; keeping the temperatures lower.

I wish people would stop saying this. It is just not true. 800v batteries do not produce less heat when charging.

The vast majority of the heat during charging is coming from the battery cells which are the same voltage (around 3 volts) no matter what voltage the overall pack is configured at.

It is only the cable and the motor that sees the higher voltage (and therefore reduced heating) and the cable and motor aren't limiting your charge speed most of the time.

There are benefits to higher voltage, but reduced battery heating during charging is not one of them.

Higher voltages should allow lighter and more flexible charging cables, but only if the charger manufacturer is willing to drop 500a support for 400v vehicles which they probably are not going to do. So the cables are not getting lighter anytime soon.

Higher voltages is also one way to exceed the 200kw ( 400v * 500A) max rating of a 400V CCS connector, but so does switching to a 400v NACS port. NACS connectors do not have that 500amp maximum. Tesla vehicles routinely exceed 500 amps. I see around 700 amps for a short time in my 2019 Model 3.

Rivian's current battery cell cooling system can't handle 200kw for more than a few minutes. Unless Rivian also overhauls the cell cooling it isn't going to be able to max out a 700A 400v NACS charger for more than a few seconds so increasing the voltage would not help the charging speed by any significant degree.

At most it would allow them to advertise a slightly higher peak rate that only lasts 3 seconds at the cost of slower charging on 400v chargers. Since nearly all of the (reliable) chargers are 400v the average real world charging speed would be slower on an 800v NACS Rivian than on a 400v NACS Rivian.

 

[NC-Rivian]

I agree 800v would be good but to think they would do it one year after coming out with a Gen 2 was just fanciful. They need to have better cooling of their battery packs - charging speed is the key thing (area under the curve not just the max).

 

[mkhuffman]

Rivian's current battery cell cooling system can't handle 200kw for more than a few minutes. Unless Rivian also overhauls the cell cooling it isn't going to be able to max out a 700A 400v NACS charger for more than a few seconds so increasing the voltage would not help the charging speed by any significant degree.

The 2025.18 charging curve allows 200+ kW for much longer than a few minutes. This is based on my personal experience and others who have testing charging performance.

 

[godfodder0901]

I wish people would stop saying this. It is just not true. 800v batteries do not produce less heat when charging.

The vast majority of the heat during charging is coming from the battery cells which are the same voltage (around 3 volts) no matter what voltage the overall pack is configured at.

It is only the cable and the motor that sees the higher voltage (and therefore reduced heating) and the cable and motor aren't limiting your charge speed most of the time.

There are benefits to higher voltage, but reduced battery heating during charging is not one of them.

Higher voltages should allow lighter and more flexible charging cables, but only if the charger manufacturer is willing to drop 500a support for 400v vehicles which they probably are not going to do. So the cables are not getting lighter anytime soon.

Higher voltages is also one way to exceed the 200kw ( 400v * 500A) max rating of a 400V CCS connector, but so does switching to a 400v NACS port. NACS connectors do not have that 500amp maximum. Tesla vehicles routinely exceed 500 amps. I see around 700 amps for a short time in my 2019 Model 3.

Rivian's current battery cell cooling system can't handle 200kw for more than a few minutes. Unless Rivian also overhauls the cell cooling it isn't going to be able to max out a 700A 400v NACS charger for more than a few seconds so increasing the voltage would not help the charging speed by any significant degree.

At most it would allow them to advertise a slightly higher peak rate that only lasts 3 seconds at the cost of slower charging on 400v chargers. Since nearly all of the (reliable) chargers are 400v the average real world charging speed would be slower on an 800v NACS Rivian than on a 400v NACS Rivian.

First, you forgot to quote the entire post where I said 'at the same rate'. Don't cherry pick part of the statement to make yourself seem smarter.

Second, since you didn't catch it the first time, an otherwise identical 800v system will charge at a lower temperature at a given rate than a 400v system will and this includes the batteries.

 

[sub]

Second, since you didn't catch it the first time, an otherwise identical 800v system will charge at a lower temperature at a given rate than a 400v system will and this includes the batteries.

And that is exactly what I am saying is people are constantly misstating.

Lithium batteries are roughly 3 volts. All of them. They are all charged at 3 volts. All of them.

In both a 400v and 800v battery pack the actual battery cells see exactly the same voltages (3v) and produce exactly the same amount of heat.

The wires leading to the battery will produce less heat, but the actual battery cells will not. And it's usually the battery cells that are overheating rather than the wires.

Higher voltage will only help if it's the wires running to the battery that you are having problems with.

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

Rivian will be out of business or acquired by 2030 at this rate. Their product won’t sell in Europe, elsewhere without 800v. And in the US, they’ll continue to face strong competition from incumbent OEMs.

BMW’s new EV platform coming out across their entire line up has 800V, up to 400kw charging, and great range.

At some point, even US consumers will start comparing and make their choices. It doesn’t matter whether one “needs” 400v. It’ll be like a horsepower contest, where all else equal, consumers will choose the one with the higher horsepower.

Their product is not competitive on the charging aspect. But it’s way too late to change the architecture now. They sales are down and I have 2 friends that have a one year old Gen 2 and they are done with Rivian - too expensive of a vehicle with too many problems and bad service. One had a tech come out last month and he literally said “I’ve never seen a Rivian with these wires in these places?” He had never seen a Gen 2 apparently.

So right now the R1 is a product with a shrinking base of customers. What they need is a superbly well built R2 (sure with 800v) that costs $55k max, launched with a very very heavily built up and trained service department. This takes lots of logistics planning.

Hoping they can do it. But they can’t mess around with the R1 in the interim. All focus on R2.

 

[DuoRivians]

And that is exactly what I am saying is people are constantly misstating.

Lithium batteries are roughly 3 volts. All of them. They are all charged at 3 volts. All of them.

In both a 400v and 800v battery pack the actual battery cells see exactly the same voltages (3v) and produce exactly the same amount of heat.

The wires leading to the battery will produce less heat, but the actual battery cells will not. And it's usually the battery cells that are overheating rather than the wires.

Higher voltage will only help if it's the wires running to the battery that you are having problems with.

So you’re saying whether the batteries are DCFC fast charging, or charging at home on 110/240v, they generate the same heat?

Yeah, right.

 

[sub]

So you’re saying whether the batteries are DCFC fast charging, or charging at home on 110/240v, they generate the same heat?

Yeah, right.

That isn't what I meant but actually that is more accurate than you realize.

If you charge them slower, they will produce heat more slowly, but because they also take longer to charge they will produce that heat for a longer period of time and the total amount of heat produced will be the same. Resistance does go up with temperature, so if battery begins to overheat it will start to produce even more heat. But as long as both are adequately cooled both really will produce exactly the same heat.

But what I meant was that if you apply 200kw to a 400v pack and an 800v pack the cells in both batteries will charge at the same speed and produce the same amount of heat. And if you were one of those batteries cells there would be no way for you to determine which of those battery packs you were in.

There aren't 400 and 800 volt battery cells. The are only 3 volt cells. And the cells produce the same amount of heat no matter what voltage the pack is configured to output.

 

[narmstrong79]

I was low probability hoping 2026 would bring 800V charging. Guess not.

800v is "nice" but totally unnecessary. 800v and native NACS makes no sense. 400+v architecture and better thermal management is all that is needed at least for the next 5+ years. Most people lease and won't have the car in 5 years.

 

[DuoRivians]

That isn't what I meant but actually that is more accurate than you realize.

If you charge them slower, they will produce heat more slowly, but because they also take longer to charge they will produce that heat for a longer period of time and the total amount of heat produced will be the same. Resistance does go up with temperature, so if battery begins to overheat it will start to produce even more heat. But as long as both are adequately cooled both really will produce exactly the same heat.

But what I meant was that if you apply 200kw to a 400v pack and an 800v pack the cells in both batteries will charge at the same speed and produce the same amount of heat. And if you were one of those batteries cells there would be no way for you to determine which of those battery packs you were in.

There aren't 400 and 800 volt battery cells. The are only 3 volt cells. And the cells produce the same amount of heat no matter what voltage the pack is configured to output.

So, how do the batteries arrange themselves to charge at 110V or 400V?

 

[DuoRivians]

800v is "nice" but totally unnecessary. 800v and native NACS makes no sense. 400+v architecture and better thermal management is all that is needed at least for the next 5+ years. Most people lease and won't have the car in 5 years.

When everyone else is onto 800V, you don’t want to be the only one who isn’t. It’s not a question of need. It’s a question of competitiveness.

Even BMWs new EV system provides 800v, 400kw charging across their lineup soon. This will be in their upcoming iX3 model, aimed at the R2 market:

https://www.autoblog.com/news/bmw-ix3-the-electric-suv-ready-to-shake-up-the-ev-world

 

[sub]

So, how do the batteries arrange themselves to charge at 110V or 400V?

My point is that these battery cells, while nominally rated for 3.6V, can charge at different voltages, as long as it doesn’t exceed the nominal rating.

Nope. The battery cells cannot take in 110v or 400v. And cannot take in AC.

Only 3V DC.

When you plug into an 120 or 240v AC outlet there is an AC-DC converter in the car (but not inside the battery) that turns the AC to 400V DC. The 400V DC enters the battery where it is reduced to 3V DC (through series voltage division ) to charge the cells.

A DC fast charger does the same thing however the ac/dc conversion happens in the cabinet instead of in the car's AC/DC converter.

No matter what you plug into the cells only ever see 3 volts.

And an 800v pack is the same. 800v enters the pack but is still reduced to 3 volts.

 

[DuoRivians]

Nope. The battery cells cannot take in 110v or 400v. And cannot take in AC.

Only 3V DC.

When you plug into an 120 or 240v AC outlet there is an AC-DC converter in the car (but not inside the battery) that turns the AC to 400V DC. The 400V DC enters the battery where it is reduced to 3V DC (through series voltage division ) to charge the cells.

A DC fast charger does the same thing however the ac/dc conversion happens in the cabinet instead of in the car's AC/DC converter.

No matter what you plug into the cells only ever see 3 volts.

And an 800v pack is the same. 800v enters the pack but is still reduced to 3 volts.

My question was rhetorical, you missed the point.

There is far less heat in the cells, even after AC/DC conversion, than when you charge them at 400V over DCFC.

Its not just about what the voltage per cell is. It’s about current, heat generated throughout the pack to support the fast charging, electronics.

We don’t have to reinvent the argument. Plenty of 800V packs charge at 350kw+ at similar heat as Rivian’s 400V pack at 200kW. Yes, thermals/cooling matter, but 800v packs just generate less heat to begin with, for a given kw speed.

 

[narmstrong79]

When everyone else is onto 800V, you don’t want to be the only one who isn’t. It’s not a question of need. It’s a question of competitiveness.

Even BMWs new EV system provides 800v, 400kw charging across their lineup soon. This will be in their upcoming iX3 model, aimed at the R2 market:

https://www.autoblog.com/news/bmw-ix3-the-electric-suv-ready-to-shake-up-the-ev-world

Only us forum dwelling nerds even know what electrical architecture even means. The general public doesn't even know what that means.

Only Kia/Hyundai and Porsche are really on the 800v train

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