Musk Forbes article.

[COdogman]

To be fair it’s the just the same handful of posters that are akin to teenage fanboys with a brand hatred that is actually really funny to read who

I personally love both brands & will continue being a customer of them.

Maybe you can explain why the "this is a Rivian forum" complaint is only dusted off when criticism of Tesla/ Leon occurs and not, for example when members discuss trailers or tires or food or any of the other million topics discussed here not directly related to Rivian? Because this is actually "funny to read" IMO....

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[PaythePiper]

To be fair it’s the just the same handful of posters that are akin to teenage fanboys with a brand hatred that is actually really funny to read who

I personally love both brands & will continue being a customer of them.

You are totally correct. But annoying nonetheless

 

[PaythePiper]

Maybe you can explain why the "this is a Rivian forum" complaint is only dusted off when criticism of Tesla/ Leon occurs and not, for example when members discuss trailers or tires or food or any of the other million topics discussed here not directly related to Rivian? Because this is actually "funny to read" IMO....

you what I never see or hear on the Tesla sites and such? A word about Rivian lol.

 

[COdogman]

you what I never see or hear on the Tesla sites and such? A word about Rivian lol.

Sounds like your safe space. I'm SURE you would voice your complaints if someone did

 

[SwampNut]

I don' think people are cross shopping Teslas when thinking about a pickup/suv or cross shopping Rivians when thinking primarily about EV sedans.

What??? Of course we are. I don't think anyone is cross shopping ICE trucks or SUVs. I don't know anyone with a Rivian or a Tesla who didn't consider the other, but didn't consider ICE at all. We bought our Rivian shortly after test driving a CT and a Lightning.

 

[docwhiz]

What??? Of course we are. I don't think anyone is cross shopping ICE trucks or SUVs. I don't know anyone with a Rivian or a Tesla who didn't consider the other, but didn't consider ICE at all. We bought our Rivian shortly after test driving a CT and a Lightning.

My daughter went through a Model X then a Model Y before settling into a Rivian R1S.
Both of the Teslas had significant shortcomings compared to the Rivian which she loves and has owned for more than 2 years.

 

[SwampNut]

My daughter went through a Model X then a Model Y before settling into a Rivian R1S.
Both of the Teslas had significant shortcomings compared to the Rivian which she loves and has owned for more than 2 years.

Our Rivian has significant shortcomings compared to the Tesla we traded in for it, but we really needed a truck. And the Deplorean is such a joke plus also has some of the same problems like lack of Autopilot. With the $220 lease announcement, having a Tesla again is on the table.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

While I do believe the damage to Musk's image over the last few years is well deserved, I can't help but roll my eyes at these lawsuits. Does Tesla play fast and loose with marketing? Yes. Should they have avoided effectively pre-selling a feature without a release date? Yes. Could any person have easily determined Teslas DON'T drive themselves? Absolutely, within 30 seconds in a showroom or on a test drive.

This lawsuit like all the others is an indictment of the way Musk communicates, and perhaps he deserves the headache, but to me this is just lawyers looking for a big payday. Tesla has invested billions into this tech and I believe the entire industry is better for it. There is no scam here, just a really really hard technical problem and an overly optimistic blabbermouth CEO.

Can you come up with other cases where customers spend thousands of dollars on a feature only for it to never materialize?

How is it not the greatest case of fraud the last decade? It started in 2016 or so and continued until just about a year ago or so when they moved the language to supervised full self driving.

Don't you think customers who paid for an UPCOMING feature don't deserve to be paid back?

They didn't just play it fast and loose with marketing but it was clearly a lie from the get go.

This wasn't a feature that could be demonstrated on a test drive as it was upcoming.

In 2018 when I bought a Model 3 Performance Tesla promised me enhanced autopilot in the near term that would automatically change lanes based on navigation, and eventually that the car could drive itself.

I didn't believe the second part but I believed the first part. That seemed perfectly doable.

In my 4 years with it did it ever really do either? No, not at all.

The Enhanced Autopilot was utterly worthless.
The short period of time at the end when FSD started to trickle out it took a lot of concentration to constantly keep it in check.

It cost me $8K and maybe delivered $2K worth of value at best.

With Rivian in 2022 I was promised hands free driving but they didn't deliver on that. So you could say that's fraud too but they didn't charge me anything for it.

In both cases I won't sue.

In Tesla's case I simply blame Elon for the entire fiasco so I won't buy another one till he's gone from Tesla or that he actually delivers on FSD.

In Rivians case I see it more as an OOPS we messed up.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

Our Rivian has significant shortcomings compared to the Tesla we traded in for it, but we really needed a truck. And the Deplorean is such a joke plus also has some of the same problems like lack of Autopilot. With the $220 lease announcement, having a Tesla again is on the table.

My experience its been a mixed bag.

I do feel as if overall that Rivian is the closest to Tesla in terms of the overall customer experience.

The connected car - Things like Gear Guard and Sentry mode.
The App
The Service Center

How it all ties together.

For a long time Rivian service was the pain part of owning a Rivian but they just opened up a new service center near my work so I expect that to me a much lower issue.

Driver assistance is certainly weaker in the Rivian but I'm someone who doesn't care because I'd have rather have full L4 level self driving than an L2 system that tricks people into thinking its better than it really is. So I'll be sitting out the whole Tesla FSD thing until they officially move to L4 which is unsupervised FSD.

Having actual physical switches is better with a Rivian and I do feel as if the interior is nicer.

Wind Noise Tesla probably absolutely gets the win. I don't say that as just being my experience but I've seen in various forums that a lot of owners who have both have been saying that.

Support has been much better with Rivian. With Tesla I had numerous software related issues where Tesla had no ability to contact anyone over Text/Email/etc. Everything had to go through the phone and waiting.

One thing Rivian has that Tesla hasn't had in some times is good leadership.

Tesla's lead is so out of touch with reality that he caused irreputable harm to Tesla. He didn't just damage the brand credibility but he damaged the ability of Tesla to make money.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Can you come up with other cases where customers spend thousands of dollars on a feature only for it to never materialize?

How is it not the greatest case of fraud the last decade? It started in 2016 or so and continued until just about a year ago or so when they moved the language to supervised full self driving.

Don't you think customers who paid for an UPCOMING feature don't deserve to be paid back?

They didn't just play it fast and loose with marketing but it was clearly a lie from the get go.

This wasn't a feature that could be demonstrated on a test drive as it was upcoming.

In 2018 when I bought a Model 3 Performance Tesla promised me enhanced autopilot in the near term that would automatically change lanes based on navigation, and eventually that the car could drive itself.

I didn't believe the second part but I believed the first part. That seemed perfectly doable.

In my 4 years with it did it ever really do either? No, not at all.

The Enhanced Autopilot was utterly worthless.
The short period of time at the end when FSD started to trickle out it took a lot of concentration to constantly keep it in check.

It cost me $8K and maybe delivered $2K worth of value at best.

With Rivian in 2022 I was promised hands free driving but they didn't deliver on that. So you could say that's fraud too but they didn't charge me anything for it.

In both cases I won't sue.

In Tesla's case I simply blame Elon for the entire fiasco so I won't buy another one till he's gone from Tesla or that he actually delivers on FSD.

In Rivians case I see it more as an OOPS we messed up.

100% this. I recall another recent case of a company whose founder claimed to have a game-changing technology that could yield amazing lab results from a single drop of blood. Anyone who has lab tests can tell you that doctors need several vials of blood to run tests currently. The tech didn't work, and there were criminal charges.

The founder's name was Elizabeth Holmes. I'll leave it to all of you to see what happened to her. The same should happen to Elon over Full Self Driving.

 

[sacramentoelectric]

100% this. I recall another recent case of a company whose founder claimed to have a game-changing technology that could yield amazing lab results from a single drop of blood. Anyone who has lab tests can tell you that doctors need several vials of blood to run tests currently. The tech didn't work, and there were criminal charges.

The founder's name was Elizabeth Holmes. I'll leave it to all of you to see what happened to her. The same should happen to Elon over Full Self Driving.

The difference here is that nobody died because of her lies.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

The difference here is that nobody died because of her lies.

All the more reason to throw Elon in jail. She got 11 years, we can do better for him.

 

[SwampNut]

The difference here is that nobody died because of her lies.

Nor were helped. Meanwhile Tesla (and other Musk companies) have provided significant global societal benefits. Tesla ADAS has failed a few times, while also preventing or mitigating tens of thousands of other collisions. We can see that the net is positive, and crazy people who claim that one single failure is a total failure are just nuts. Starlink has had a massive positive effect, and I can't come up with any negatives. Unless you're one of the ISPs stealing tax dollars for infrastructure but doing nothing. They were "hurt" by Starlink. Should Musk stop lying? Of course. Has he been connected to a shitload of benefits too? Duh.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Nor were helped. Meanwhile Tesla (and other Musk companies) have provided significant global societal benefits. Tesla ADAS has failed a few times, while also preventing or mitigating tens of thousands of other collisions. We can see that the net is positive, and crazy people who claim that one single failure is a total failure are just nuts. Starlink has had a massive positive effect, and I can't come up with any negatives. Unless you're one of the ISPs stealing tax dollars for infrastructure but doing nothing. They were "hurt" by Starlink. Should Musk stop lying? Of course. Has he been connected to a shitload of benefits too? Duh.

“It’s okay to kill a few people so long as I don’t have to pay attention on my commute”- Swampnut

 

[BigSkies]

Nor were helped. Meanwhile Tesla (and other Musk companies) have provided significant global societal benefits. Tesla ADAS has failed a few times, while also preventing or mitigating tens of thousands of other collisions. We can see that the net is positive, and crazy people who claim that one single failure is a total failure are just nuts. Starlink has had a massive positive effect, and I can't come up with any negatives. Unless you're one of the ISPs stealing tax dollars for infrastructure but doing nothing. They were "hurt" by Starlink. Should Musk stop lying? Of course. Has he been connected to a shitload of benefits too? Duh.

To my knowledge Tesla has never demonstrated or quantified that any driver autonomy products are safer than not using them. I've heard of some Xitter posts that are unverifiable and unsubstantiated.

I'd be happy to read any documentation of quantifiable safety benefits if it actually exists.

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