Idle fee hate

[VSG]

I'm in favor of idle time fees.
I think Rivian makes the idle time fee and the grace period clear.
Idle fees are a common thing across charger brands, they shouldn't be a surprise.
And I believe when you reach your charge limit you will get a notification on your phone. Although it seems to me these notifications are not immediate.

If the rules for when to charge you were complicated, then you would never be able to verify that you were being charged properly. For example, if the rule was idle fee only if the station was more than 50% full, then how would you know if that happened sometime in the 2.5 hours you were away from the vehicle? Lots of people could have come in, spend .5 hours, then left. And some could have been turned away by a full charger or because they needed to "take up two spaces" due to their charge port location. You just don't know. I don't think it would be right to charge you for something you didn't know was going to happen and for something you can't verify actually happened. Best to say something like Rivian does - 10 minute grace period then the fee starts, regardless.

Just like parking meters - you have to pay for the time and live with the 2 hour time limit, whether or not anyone else is parked or trying to park on that block. Any other system would be unenforceable.

The idle fees are there to encourage a different behavior. I'll bet you won't make that mistake again, and that's the point. It's too bad you learned the lesson the hard way. Most of us have many decades of experience fueling ICE vehicles, so we know the rules, but you have to learn a new way of fueling with new rules when you take an EV on a road trip. It's not that different, but you're not accustomed to thinking about some of these issues with an EV. Once you learn, it becomes second nature quickly.

I always recommend that new owners try out DCFC charging locally, at many different brands of chargers, so that they can get all their apps set up and work out a system for locating chargers and determining charging prices before they actually need this stuff on a road trip.

If there's a takeaway, maybe it's you should take more road trips so you'll learn all the gotchas!

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[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Another strategy that can be used in situations like this:

Reduce your charging amperage to finish when you need it to end.

Intentionally "slow" charge at a DCFC?

Better yet, if you know you'll be stepping away from the car, simply set an alarm on your smartphone or smart watch. On an Apple device, it's as simple as "hey, Siri, set timer to ____ minutes". Then turn volume up and keep device with you. Pretty sure Android devices have similar capability. One glance at the charging screen is all it takes to know how many minutes to count down from.

 

[Scottm]

Yeah, I can't imagine needing to charge for that long on a RAN.

Chargepoint though?... Maybe.

Oh yeah, if you’re on one of those 50-75kw DC slow chargers that would be a different story. I avoid those if there’s any other option and even then I’d hopefully only charge enough to get to the next decent DCFC.

 

[CharonPDX]

Oh yeah, if you’re on one of those 50-75kw DC slow chargers that would be a different story. I avoid those if there’s any other option and even then I’d hopefully only charge enough to get to the next decent DCFC.

Yep, I've been stuck (while towing) having to stop at a 62.5kW station, when I needed to charge to 90%+ to make it to the next charging station. (Okay, there was another 62.5kW station about 10 miles further down the road, but that wasn't exactly an improvement on the situation.) Over two hours charging. (I decided to charge to 100% and just skip the EA 10 miles before my destination, since I could charge at my destination.)

But when I'm at a 150kW+? Unless I'm towing and *NEED* the extra charge to reach the next charge stop/destination? I stop when I have enough to reach that next charge stop/destination. I don't even DC charge overnight, even on empty stations with no idle fee. DC charging doesn't take long, I'll do it before settling in for the night, or in the morning.

I should note - I've been charged an idle fee at a RAN once.

I plugged in, had my charge limit set to 100% (I was towing,) and walked away to go eat lunch at a sit down restaurant about a mile away.

Just as I was finishing eating, I got a ding on my phone that my vehicle had stopped charging at 78%, and idle fees would be starting soon.

Yep, I got there a couple minutes past the grace period.

Mine I did call Rivian to get a refund of the idle fee, since it hadn't even charged to 80%, much less the 100% I had it set to. Had it charged to even 90%, I would have gotten back before it was finished charging.

 

[JohnB R1T]

This whole "idle fee" mess is triply annoying in Texas for the following reasons:

1) There are no laws preventing not-actively-charging vehicles from parking in the slots marked for EV use in Texas. Since these are (usually, in the case of Rivian and Shell) placed in "primo" locations (as compared to Tesla's habit of putting them on the outskirts of grocery stores)...they tend to get ICE-holed regularly.

2) Since 1) exists, there's nothing to stop an EV owner from unplugging and staying there (think busy mall at peak shopping times)...this is where the San Antonio RAN is located.

The last time I visited the mall where the RAN is located in San Antonio, I encountered the following:

a) A Tesla plugged in and not charging (possibly they never started the charge event, meaning no overtime.) This looks "innocent" enough to likely avoid getting the car "keyed".
b) A Tesla NOT plugged in. (I don't key other people, but this guy was an A-Hole)
c) A 20 year old ICE "beater" that likely belonged to a dishwasher at PF Changs.
d) Another ICE vehicle that two waitresses from PF Chang's got into and drove away while I was there.
e) A non-Rivian EV occupied by a kid and his mom who were unable to initiate a charge, so they just left it there and went in to go shopping.

Thus, the only potential occupant who stood the chance of getting charged for overtime was ME. Since my destination was an AT&T store for a new phone, I knew it would take a while so I opted to park further away (a lot further away) in the lot rather than pay $.48/kwh for something I can get for under $.14/kwh at home (nevermind potential penalty).

 

[CharonPDX]

This whole "idle fee" mess is triply annoying in Texas for the following reasons:

1) There are no laws preventing not-actively-charging vehicles from parking in the slots marked for EV use in Texas. Since these are (usually, in the case of Rivian and Shell) placed in "primo" locations (as compared to Tesla's habit of putting them on the outskirts of grocery stores)...they tend to get ICE-holed regularly.

There may not be any laws requiring it, but are there laws disallowing the "no parking except when charging"? Because the vast majority of charging is on private land, and the private landowner can insist on whatever rules they want (that aren't a violation of the law, like not having any wheelchair spaces in a lot over x spots.)

 

[JohnB R1T]

There may not be any laws requiring it, but are there laws disallowing the "no parking except when charging"? Because the vast majority of charging is on private land, and the private landowner can insist on whatever rules they want (that aren't a violation of the law, like not having any wheelchair spaces in a lot over x spots.)

If it's not a fire lane or a disabled space, no enforceable "ticket" can be written. Not even for a loading zone on private property.
That leaves the alternative of towing.
Fat chance a mall would EVER tow a customer (or even a dishwasher) for parking in "the wrong space".

We have a hospital near here which has one (of two) EV charging spaces in the garage placarded as BOTH disabled AND EV charging only. I confirmed that it was NOT "either/or"...it was "and"...the security guard confirmed that EV owners without disabled plates/placards were regularly ticketed for parking in a disabled spot. I've never seen an EV parked there with or without a plate/placard, but I've seen plenty of plated/placarded ICE vehicles parked there. Chances are they would never get towed from anything other than a fire lane.

 

[CharonPDX]

If it's not a fire lane or a disabled space, no enforceable "ticket" can be written. Not even for a loading zone on private property.
That leaves the alternative of towing.
Fat chance a mall would EVER tow a customer (or even a dishwasher) for parking in "the wrong space".

I can confirm that "Lincoln City Outlets" in Lincoln City, OR does indeed tow out of EV charging spaces.

There's also trespass orders. "You can't park anywhere in our lot again, or you will be immediately towed." Obviously someone who doesn't park in that lot often won't really care. But someone who does park there often would then obey.

 

[JohnB R1T]

I can confirm that "Lincoln City Outlets" in Lincoln City, OR does indeed tow out of EV charging spaces.

I did say "in Texas" in my original comment.

A bill was introduced in the last legislature to address this (on public property or private property where notice is given), but it did not get passed. You'd think that, after socking EV owners with an arbitrary additional $200/yr fee to make up for lost gasoline taxes that they just "might" cut us some slack with something that costs the state nothing and actually justifiably generates revenue for the local government and the state.

 

[vandy1981]

Yes, public fast charging is expensive and compares unfavorably to petrol. Your calculations would be much more favorable and true to the real-world if you would factor in the cost of the 79,600 miles you drove on home charges.

Next time book a hotel with level 2 chargers on site. They're usually free and don't have idle fees.

 

[VSG]

Next time book a hotel with level 2 chargers on site. They're usually free and don't have idle fees.

This.

Plus, if you do this every night while on a road trip, you get 1 free full charge per day. That will cut your travel costs considerably. In my case, I usually start the day at 100%, charge twice a day (from ~10% to ~70%) and once overnight back to 100%. That cuts my DCFC charging costs by 40% and lets me drive up to about 600 miles per day, which is more than I usually want to do. With opportunity charging along the way (e.g. plug into a free Level 2 while stopping along the way to see the sights) I can realize even greater savings.

None of the gas vs DCFC comparisons seem to take this into account, but this is my norm. Do you think it would even be possible to get 40% of your gas for free on a road trip?

 

[iansriv]

This.

Plus, if you do this every night while on a road trip, you get 1 free full charge per day. That will cut your travel costs considerably. In my case, I usually start the day at 100%, charge twice a day (from ~10% to ~70%) and once overnight back to 100%. That cuts my DCFC charging costs by 40% and lets me drive up to about 600 miles per day, which is more than I usually want to do. With opportunity charging along the way (e.g. plug into a free Level 2 while stopping along the way to see the sights) I can realize even greater savings.

None of the gas vs DCFC comparisons seem to take this into account, but this is my norm. Do you think it would even be possible to get 40% of your gas for free on a road trip?

It's a good idea but what I've experienced is ICE cars parked in those spots and in another case the chargers were not working. These days, I mostly use Tesla SCs. I charge up to 80% the evening before departing and 100% the morning of.

 

[vandy1981]

It's a good idea but what I've experienced is ICE cars parked in those spots and in another case the chargers were not working. These days, I mostly use Tesla SCs. I charge up to 80% the evening before departing and 100% the morning of.

This is one of the reasons why I always road trip with a J1772 extension cord.

 

[VSG]

It's a good idea but what I've experienced is ICE cars parked in those spots and in another case the chargers were not working. These days, I mostly use Tesla SCs. I charge up to 80% the evening before departing and 100% the morning of.

I think this is a highly localized problem. In my ~15k miles of roadtrips, I've never been blocked at a hotel charger (I'm usually the only one there). And I've never had to wait in line at a DCFC either. Partially because I don't travel on those days when everyone else is traveling, and partially because I don't stay at hotels in busy or crowded locations. I also use AirBnB and campsites for lodging, and those have dedicated L2 chargers (If they don't I don't stay there).

 

[CharonPDX]

It's a good idea but what I've experienced is ICE cars parked in those spots and in another case the chargers were not working. These days, I mostly use Tesla SCs. I charge up to 80% the evening before departing and 100% the morning of.

The few times I have done road trips where we stay at a hotel (most of our road trips are camping) I try to choose a hotel that both has charging, and is somewhat near a rapid charger. Arrive at the hotel, see if the L2s are available, if not, no big deal, I'll hit the rapid charger in the morning. (Also done when camping at campgrounds that I'm not sure if charging is allowed before arriving.)

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