Taming the "AI Beast": My first 150 miles with UHF Universal Hands Free (I need your input!)

[mpshizzle]

You guys... UHF is opening an exciting door. Over the last few days I've put in about 150 miles trying it out. It's rough around the edges, for sure. But it's also showing a lot of promise. In a weird way, I'd say it feels less like they're writing code and more like taming an animal.

Based on my initial impressions, the best way I can think of to describe UHF is that it's like they loosened the reins on their LDM (Large Driving Model). It seems like they’re slowly taking more and more of the guard rails away as it gets a bit smarter. But... the funny thing about AI models is you can't really just turn behaviors on and off. There's no line of code that says "If there are no lines, hand control back to the driver". In this initial release of UHF it's been explicitly told to not work on unmarked roads. But, once or twice I've actually seen it do just that. (To be clear, I don't recommend you try this. When this did happen it did OK, but not great on these unmarked roads). Or when Rivian was giving demos of their Point to Point prototype at autonomy day it was told to not turn right on red. And for the most part, it didn't! But on some of the test drives (not mine), it took the right on red anyway.

So it's definitely a battle Rivian is having to fight here. You want to give the AI a long enough leash that it can figure out real world situations like crossing the yellow line to get around a delivery truck. But at the same time, you need it to follow rules and drive safely. Even though they have loosened the proverbial reins a bit in UHF, they clearly are taking a very cautious approach. It feels like they are keeping a lot of guard rails up until they are sure the system can safely perform that task. For example still restricting auto lane changes to the freeway, or not stopping for stop lights and stop signs.

But this is where my curiosity has been piqued. (And also where I would love some input from the community)

I'm very curious what the model is really capable of. I want to know what things the model technically IS capable of, but there's just a guard rail preventing it, and what things the model just ISN'T capable of. So let me know.. What are the scenarios you are curious about? What cases do you want me to test? Or if you have encountered an interesting situation I should investigate, let me know! I don't think I'll be able to find answers to all of it. But you can bet I'm gonna do my best to find as many answers as I can!

If you're interested in going a bit deeper on the topic, you can watch the video about this here:

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[krb1183]

Awesome. I played with UHF a little myself today. In fact on some of my neighborhood roads I got UHF to work without lines on the road but lining the Rivian up pretty parallel to the curb until the cams saw the curbs on both sides of the road, it then was able to drive on the right side of the road. Of course I have been paying very close attention keeping my hands near the steering wheel today, but I have been impressed so far. I tried to see if a right turn lane that had lines that curved to the right would work while following another vehicle, as soon as it saw a median it called for me to take control, might have been too steep for it. It's handled narrow lanes very well too.

 

[ATLRivvy]

Umm… you absolutely CAN have utilize AI models and “really just turn behaviors on and off”. And you absolutely can have a “line of code that says ‘if there are no lines, hand control back to the driver’”. Not only can you do both of these things - they are both trivial things to do.

Think of the AI model as an input feature replacing a decision tree (for simplicity). It doesn’t stop there being other deterministic inputs or limitations. These are called guardrails and are basically the only way AI is deployed at enterprise scale.

 

[orttauq]

I used it over the last few days on a well marked mountain road with lots of curves. I was way too cautious on the curves, slowing 15-20 miles per hour as it came to any curve-tight or not. Once out and back to a straight section it got back to the speed setting (60) rather aggressively. It also followed too closely to the car ahead of me when not in the curves. Note the other driver maintained a pretty constant speed so the Rivian would slow down in the twisties and then catch up again to kinda tail-gate. I tried all 3 modes during this and turned it off after 10-15 mins of that.

 

[Donald Stanfield]

I used it over the last few days on a well mark mountain road with lots of curves. I was way too cautious on the curves, slowing 15-20 miles per hour as it came to any curve-tight or not. Once out and back to a straight section it got back to the speed setting (60) rather aggressively. It also followed too closely to the car ahead of me when not in the curves. Note the other driver maintained a pretty constant speed so the Rivian would slow down in the twisties and then catch up again to kinda tail-gate. I tried all 3 modes during this and turned it off after 10-15 mins of that.

Completely agree about the winding roads and the overly conservative approach. Here in the foothills of the Great Smoky Mountains, UHF drives like the most cautious tourist to the point it’s almost unusable without throttle input from the driver.

 

[Supratachophobia]

You guys... UHF is opening an exciting door. Over the last few days I've put in about 150 miles trying it out. It's rough around the edges, for sure. But it's also showing a lot of promise. In a weird way, I'd say it feels less like they're writing code and more like taming an animal.

Based on my initial impressions, the best way I can think of to describe UHF is that it's like they loosened the reins on their LDM (Large Driving Model). It seems like they’re slowly taking more and more of the guard rails away as it gets a bit smarter. But... the funny thing about AI models is you can't really just turn behaviors on and off. There's no line of code that says "If there are no lines, hand control back to the driver". In this initial release of UHF it's been explicitly told to not work on unmarked roads. But, once or twice I've actually seen it do just that. (To be clear, I don't recommend you try this. When this did happen it did OK, but not great on these unmarked roads). Or when Rivian was giving demos of their Point to Point prototype at autonomy day it was told to not turn right on red. And for the most part, it didn't! But on some of the test drives (not mine), it took the right on red anyway.

So it's definitely a battle Rivian is having to fight here. You want to give the AI a long enough leash that it can figure out real world situations like crossing the yellow line to get around a delivery truck. But at the same time, you need it to follow rules and drive safely. Even though they have loosened the proverbial reins a bit in UHF, they clearly are taking a very cautious approach. It feels like they are keeping a lot of guard rails up until they are sure the system can safely perform that task. For example still restricting auto lane changes to the freeway, or not stopping for stop lights and stop signs.

But this is where my curiosity has been piqued. (And also where I would love some input from the community)

I'm very curious what the model is really capable of. I want to know what things the model technically IS capable of, but there's just a guard rail preventing it, and what things the model just ISN'T capable of. So let me know.. What are the scenarios you are curious about? What cases do you want me to test? Or if you have encountered an interesting situation I should investigate, let me know! I don't think I'll be able to find answers to all of it. But you can bet I'm gonna do my best to find as many answers as I can!

If you're interested in going a bit deeper on the topic, you can watch the video about this here:

Just did 500 miles using it exclusively. But I would say it's arguably no better than APv1 on my 2016odel S (mobile eye).

Yes, it's good. But coming from a Tesla implementation, I have a great deal of trust issues to work through. Having seen the autonomy view "misinterpret" or just plain "miss" objects in it's view over the entire course of ownership, I'm unclear exactly how this is considered, overall, a driver's aid.

For example, zoom-out turn signal view, amazing. I think that type of environment awareness is incredible. BUT should you trust it to actually make a decision; either for you or by you???

So inevitably what happened during the trip was adding this additional check/verify logic to the process of changing lanes. Believe me, I want to rely on it 100% but should we? Should we now? Should we ever?

I think the thing we don't want to admit is that if eyes-off isn't going to be a thing for gen2. Then the true answer is we should never rely on that system 100%. And at that point, a feature has been demoted to gimmick.

Harsh? Maybe. Are we moving the right direction? Definitely. The Tesla system was good 99% of the time. If I had to guess, the Rivian is 99.99%. But we will always be babysitters of this system. Until any manufacturer is willing to stand behind their system in the fine print as more than a driving aid, we should all keep our excitement in check.

 

[Weck]

Completely agree about the winding roads and the overly conservative approach. Here in the foothills of the Great Smoky Mountains, UHF drives like the most cautious tourist to the point it’s almost unusable without throttle input from the driver.

Ice noticed that the overly cautious behavior tends to relate to whether there is line of sight through the curve. If it's clear, speed is maintained pretty well, albeit it may slow a little bit where I would just rail through it. However if there are trees on the inside of the curve, or an elevation drop that obscures where the road goes... Yeah, grandma with cataracts mode engaged.

 

[captainjp]

I agree that it does need tons of refinement and hopefully the developing LDM will help achieve that. I have to say that the UHF performs better than I expected, however there are some cases where I questioned some of the decisions. The one thing that stands out most is when driving on local roads. If there happens to be a vehicle parked on the right, it’s interpreted as a vehicle that should be stopped for and not gone past. I assume this will get better as more vehicles are driven with the UHF active.

 

[2kwik4u]

Stupid question......Not sure where else to ask. And speaking of being overly conservative.......

Does Rivian let you use Adaptive Cruise, or Lane Keep while towing yet? With this big fancy update, that feels like it could be a big deal.

My boats in storage until spring, so I can't test for awhile. Hoping someone here can report good news on that front. Anyone?

 

[mpshizzle]

Stupid question......Not sure where else to ask. And speaking of being overly conservative.......

Does Rivian let you use Adaptive Cruise, or Lane Keep while towing yet? With this big fancy update, that feels like it could be a big deal.

My boats in storage until spring, so I can't test for awhile. Hoping someone here can report good news on that front. Anyone?

Short answer: I believe not.

Long answer: All of these systems (cruise control included) are all controlled by this AI model. And as far as I know their AI training to this point hasn't included trailer data.

 

[mpshizzle]

I agree that it does need tons of refinement and hopefully the developing LDM will help achieve that. I have to say that the UHF performs better than I expected, however there are some cases where I questioned some of the decisions. The one thing that stands out most is when driving on local roads. If there happens to be a vehicle parked on the right, it’s interpreted as a vehicle that should be stopped for and not gone past. I assume this will get better as more vehicles are driven with the UHF active.

I totally agree. Since this post. I did more of a deep dive into the system, if you're curious.

https://riviantrackr.com/news/unive...er-than-ever-but-the-guardrails-are-still-on/

 

[Weck]

Stupid question......Not sure where else to ask. And speaking of being overly conservative.......

Does Rivian let you use Adaptive Cruise, or Lane Keep while towing yet? With this big fancy update, that feels like it could be a big deal.

My boats in storage until spring, so I can't test for awhile. Hoping someone here can report good news on that front. Anyone?

Nope, not yet. With an unbraked trailer you can toggle rear accessory more on and trick it (this is intended for a bike rack or similar with lights), however do at your own risk.

 

[Hauser37]

So far I love it. While not up to Tesla's system yet it is a great next step. Also I find it very helpful while driving at night and quite good on winding roads in the Montana mountains. Yes it is overly conservative on really windy roads but great next step IMO.

 

[gerrylum]

Stupid question......Not sure where else to ask. And speaking of being overly conservative.......

Does Rivian let you use Adaptive Cruise, or Lane Keep while towing yet? With this big fancy update, that feels like it could be a big deal.

My boats in storage until spring, so I can't test for awhile. Hoping someone here can report good news on that front. Anyone?

Looks like you have a Gen 1, in which case there won't ever be an update that will allow that, in my opinion.

However, the Comma system will give you the ability to have hands-free lane keep and longitudinal control while towing, so you're not completely out of options. I have used it to tow a cargo trailer and it works great.

 

[2kwik4u]

Nope, not yet. With an unbraked trailer you can toggle rear accessory more on and trick it (this is intended for a bike rack or similar with lights), however do at your own risk.

Didn't realize I could use rear accessory mode. I might try that next year.

Lack of even basic Adaptive Cruise while towing is a BIG miss IMO.

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