R2 emergency door opening sanity check

[ElGuano]

1. If the emergency door latch release mechanism in the pre-prod R2 vehicles (and R1S) is an issue, then what's the position on putting kids or adults in the third row of an R1S? Or actually in any SUV third row, this isn't a Rivian specific issue. There's no opening window, or opening door option, for a third row at all, so what happens in an emergency then?
2. As others have observed, cars for the last 50+ years at least have had child locks on the rear doors preventing anyone from exiting at any time when the child lock is set

These are probably the two most on-point reasons for why "no mechanical rear door handles" are justified, and in reality, they do expose that there's an accepted gap that we've been OK with for decades. Third row occupants? What about second row in a coupe but cannot reach the front door handle?

Regardless of the above, I *just don't get it*. The front seats have mechanical handle overrides. Why not put the the same thing on the rear? Especially in the R2, where the design of the front and rear door cards are nearly identical, just put the same handles there for god's sake. Or, go all in and remove the mechanical overrides from the front and be electronic only for everyone. Or use the same tiny pull-string for everyone. If it's good enough for your kids/grandparents in the back, it's good enough for you.

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[strykerwsu]

Yes, put mechanical on rear as well and best of both worlds for everyone and all van be happy. He made a great point on old school mechanical child locks vs improved tech of today.

I am in mechanical exterior is better love Gen 1 implementation.

 

[macb00kemdanno]

Regardless of the above, I *just don't get it*. The front seats have mechanical handle overrides. Why not put the the same thing on the rear? Especially in the R2, where the design of the front and rear door cards are nearly identical, just put the same handles there for god's sake. Or, go all in and remove the mechanical overrides from the front and be electronic only for everyone. Or use the same tiny pull-string for everyone. If it's good enough for your kids/grandparents in the back, it's good enough for you.

100% this. Why are we trying to reinvent the wheelIf there are mechanical handles in the front for emergencies, there should be emergency latches in the back. Each opening door should have a physical handle to access in emergencies.

You shouldn’t have to be removing panels and pulling cords to open a door. When was this ever an issue in modern times before Tesla had to go and make everything software based?

It’s like common sense has been thrown out the window.

 

[Great Gatsby]

Can someone tell me, from an engineering and cost perspective, how in the world do electronic doors save so much more money than a traditional one? Specially when a backup is needed?

Like I would love to see a dollar figure. A few hundred dollars per vehicle? Just throw it to the price of the car then. A few thousands? Okay...how then? An insane amount more? I just want to understand why every manufacturer is moving this way. I'm hoping its cost savings over fashion. It's also my issue with flush door handles. How much more aerodynamic is the car? If its a few miles, I think most people would take the trade off. These things aren't popular and manufacturers have to know this.

 

[BigSkies]

These things aren't popular and manufacturers have to know this.

I agree with your entire statement except for this part.

I don't think manufacturers know this. They see that Tesla did it, which makes it cool and modern and tech forward, and now they want to be cool like Tesla too.

I think Rivian is particularly susceptible to this simply because they hired so many former Tesla employees.

I love most things that Tesla and Rivian did that are different from traditional automakers. The door handles and lock situation is not one of them. They took something that has worked perfectly fine for decades and made it materially less safe. Just give me a door handle I can pull.

If I can't be convinced my 8 year old can operate the safety override while being in a panicked state (she panics easily), then I won't buy an R2. Or a gen 2 R1. I'm confident she can operate it for my Gen 1 vehicle.

I'll look at in person to see how I feel about it, but the little I've seen doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

 

[Great Gatsby]

I agree with your entire statement except for this part.

I don't think manufacturers know this. They see that Tesla did it, which makes it cool and modern and tech forward, and now they want to be cool like Tesla too.

I think Rivian is particularly susceptible to this simply because they hired so many former Tesla employees.

I love most things that Tesla and Rivian did that are different from traditional automakers. The door handles and lock situation is not one of them. They took something that has worked perfectly fine for decades and made it materially less safe. Just give me a door handle I can pull.

If I can't be convinced my 8 year old can operate the safety override while being in a panicked state (she panics easily), then I won't buy an R2. Or a gen 2 R1. I'm confident she can operate it for my Gen 1 vehicle.

I'll look at in person to see how I feel about it, but the little I've seen doesn't give me a lot of confidence.

I originally thought it was a copy and paste situation, but I'd imagine their have to be some serious cost savings on the backend to justify doing door handles this way. Explaining to people how door handles works on a car just shouldn't be a topic you have with people experiencing your vehicle. Change for change sake is kind of silly, and the doubling down on some of these manufacturers is what has me thinking that there must be something I'm missing. I have yet to meet a person who is like "oh, cool, a flimsy feelings stick that needs to be tugged at to open a door and button with a delay to get out. I love that!"

Or you're probably right and a lot of companies are a lot more gullible then we give them credit for. Who knows.

 

[2kwik4u]

I hope they can be opened completely without any power, front and rear without any emergency release shenanigans.

This......It's about adding unnecessary complication to a system that has been solved for decades. Those decades of solution have led to an almost innate understanding of how to operate a door on a motor vehicle. If you crash a car, what's the first thing you think of? Where's the handle, and how do I get out? Rivian has obsfucated the handle for, as best I can tell, no real gain in capability, cost savings, or any other reason other than maybe style, and a lot of "me too" style thinking.

It all feels very very fitting for the quote from the character Ian Malcom in Jurassic Park: "Your scientists engineers were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should"

 

[ElGuano]

Rivian has obsfucated the handle for, as best I can tell, no real gain in capability

I think this is the main issue. I don't want to be anti-progress, and I've cared far less about the lack of mechanical rear door handles on our Model X, mainly because the novel FWDs actually present new use cases that take advantage of not having easily-accessible mechanical releases. There are major trade-offs with the design for sure, but I can see a case for those doors not having easy to reach mechanical releases. I will also add however, that even in the case of the Model X, the cable-hidden-behind-door-card design is still easier to get to and more accessible than on a Rivian.

On the R1/R2, the doors are bog standard swing-out, there's not much at all gained by hiding the mechanical release on the back doors but making them readily accessible on the front. It's like how Tesla put a yoke on the MS/MX without implementing steer by wire/variable rate steering. You get all of the drawbacks and none of the benefits.

 

[pearbaron]

When the Chinese are leading on this safety issue, it shows we are way behind!

 

[racekarl]

Tesla had a technical reason for moving to the electronic door releases: the windows on the model 3 and model Y are frameless. The electronic door latch allows them to drop the window by a fraction of an inch before unlatching the door. This allows for the window to be driven further into the weatherstripping around the window when the door is closed (to reduce road noise) while dropping out of it when the door opens to prevent damage to the window or seal.

Cadillac uses electronic door latches as part of an exterior safety system to prevent doors from being opened into bicyclists.

You could charitably say maybe someday Rivian will add a system like Cadillac's, but as of now there is no consumer benefit to electronic doors on a Rivian.

 

[merkidemis]

These door handles, specifically on the inside, come off as grossly negligent. Have they learned nothing from people being burned alive trapped in Cybertrucks? Do they honestly expect children to remember or even know that there is a super secret cable they have to pull hidden under a cover they can't see from their seating position after an accident?

How does having two mechanisms to open a door, one needlessly involving electronics, motorized actuators, and software, stay in keeping with their "justify every part on the vehicle" ethos?

These are a dangerous over complication that WILL lead to deaths all in the name of style.

I was considering an R2 for my next EV, but this is a HUGE black mark against them.

A car needs only a few things: I need to get in, it needs to move and steer and stop, I need to get out, it needs to charge. Everything else is a nice to have. If you're insisting on making any of those critical functions more complicated without a large quantifiable benefit then piss off.

 

[merkidemis]

Tesla had a technical reason for moving to the electronic door releases: the windows on the model 3 and model Y are frameless. The electronic door latch allows them to drop the window by a fraction of an inch before unlatching the door. This allows for the window to be driven further into the weatherstripping around the window when the door is closed (to reduce road noise) while dropping out of it when the door opens to prevent damage to the window or seal.

Though that technical reason of Tesla's is BS. Other cars, especially convertibles, have been doing the window down thing for decades without electronic door releases. So even they don't have a justification for it. Rivian, like you mentioned, even less so.

 

[macb00kemdanno]

Tesla had a technical reason for moving to the electronic door releases: the windows on the model 3 and model Y are frameless. The electronic door latch allows them to drop the window by a fraction of an inch before unlatching the door. This allows for the window to be driven further into the weatherstripping around the window when the door is closed (to reduce road noise) while dropping out of it when the door opens to prevent damage to the window or seal.

Cadillac uses electronic door latches as part of an exterior safety system to prevent doors from being opened into bicyclists.

You could charitably say maybe someday Rivian will add a system like Cadillac's, but as of now there is no consumer benefit to electronic doors on a Rivian.

Tesla is not the first company to have frameless doors with power windows. Off the top of my head, the B9 Audi A5 Sportback also has frameless windows and manual door releases -- and the windows automatically drop slightly when opening.

 

[BigSkies]

Or you're probably right and a lot of companies are a lot more gullible then we give them credit for. Who knows.

I'm old enough and cynical enough to suspect corporate group-think is the cause until proven otherwise. But we don't really know.

I'd love to see an expert in the field break down what is really better (as the companies see it) about this. To your point, someone somewhere (Munro?) should be able to explain what cost savings or consumer benefits this brings.

Maybe the answer is that this is the cheaper way to do it if we assume unlocking from a phone app is required functionality.

If that's the case, I'd like to know, because my instant feedback to car companies and regulators is that phone interaction is about 100% less important than passenger safety.

This is starting to feel like those auto exec's in the 1950's that insisted consumers didn't want seatbelts because it implied cars are unsafe. It's entirely tone-deaf and missing the point.

 

[racekarl]

Tesla is not the first company to have frameless doors with power windows. Off the top of my head, the B9 Audi A5 Sportback also has frameless windows and manual door releases -- and the windows automatically drop slightly when opening.

I never claimed they were the first, only that they had a justification for doing so, unlike Rivian.

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