Am I the only one who thinks anything less than 400mi of range is legacy at this point?

[Kaiju]

There's a fallacy inherent in the notion that newer models = better. Technology might improve but it's often put towards making margins better, or at least slowing margin erosion, than making the end product better. ICE cars aren't actually any different there. 0-60 times for trucks over the last 20 years have remained more or less static despite their increased horsepower and torque, and mileage also hasn't really improved much because they keep getting bigger rather than more efficient. For some mysterious reason ICE engines are still using V4s, 6s and V8s in conjunction with straight-6 and even 3 cylinder engines. Which one of those is 'legacy' now?

You generally don't see 400 mile packs because the vehicles have to live within a certain price point outside of which people won't pay. It's also not even necessarily a problem of money. There are also technical limitations, mostly cooling related. The less energy dense the pack is, the more it has an ability to soak heat and have allowances for cooling. Cooling is an area-limited factor while heat generated by the pack is volumetric. They don't scale at the same rate, so the more dense you make the pack the harder it is to cool it. That's why the C factor tends to go down the larger the pack is. It's why small cars with small packs charge faster. Radiators can only get so big, and if you've already put the biggest one that will fit to get your thermals down...where does all the extra heat from charging a larger pack go?

Then there complaints about 800V charging not being standard while missing the reason that it's not on numerous vehicles is because it's extra money that doesn't really deliver any savings. It's not a one-shot superior solution. Charging is thermal-limited so all you do with an 800V system is gain 3-5 minutes at a 350+kW charger before the battery becomes heat soaked and throttles itself. Gains yes, but how much is that 3 minutes worth? Then there's the fact that those chargers are not ubiquitous and in many cases 800V systems charge worse than 400V ones because any attempt to optimize for lower current means they can't handle the amperage from a 250kW 400V charging system and have limits on their internal ability to step the voltage up. In time the charging infrastructure will get there, but it's not there now.

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[Hereforthesnacks]

In general, its not an apples to apples $20k more doing comparisons over the Model Y and R2 lines

R2 Perf $58k = Model Y Perf $57.5k (R2 will be more with cost options)

Currently there is a $8k premium from $40k -> $48k for the base RWD trims which is steep!

I think that is right, for you and me who are educated customers. But….as much as I think teslas feel like cheap cars, people look at their tech as way advanced and the pinnacle of EV tech. That’s the average customer. So, if you are looking to grab them, you have a problem.

If Rivian is looking to grab me or you, they are ok. But…we are the much smaller market.

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

Charging is thermal-limited so all you do with an 800V system is gain 3-5 minutes at a 350+kW charger before the battery becomes heat soaked and throttles itself. Gains yes, but how much is that 3 minutes worth?

Not sure where you are getting that. I can consistently add 60kwhr at 250+ kw/hr with an 800V car. It holds a curve really well. So it’s about 23 minutes to go from 20-80%, assuming you are at a legit 800V station.

That’s more than a 3 minute savings.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Wow, I didn't know half of that, thanks.

Which battery technology does the R2 have? Do we know?

R2 will use 4695 cells made by LG Energy. Its chemistry is NCMA (nickel, cobalt, maganese, aluminum) cathode with silicon anode.

 

[Gen(R3)Xer]

I don't think EVs are going to increase range much from the 300ish they have now because even if the batteries improve on energy density, manufacturers are going to just use smaller batteries to lower costs. I think what's more likely to solve this issue is better fast charging. The BYD blade II battery can recharge from 10%-100% in something like 15 minutes using their fast chargers. I think the answer isn't more battery, but faster charging. Additionally, I've heard that solid state batteries don't lose nearly as much in cold weather.

Earlier this month, BYD revealed its Blade Battery 2.0 and Flash Charging system. Used together, the company claims, they can bring a compatible vehicle from a 10% charge to 70% in roughly five minutes and from 20% to 97% in approximately 12. Extreme cold weather only adds 3 minutes.

Amazing! They need to license this to everyone.

 

[Zoidz]

Charging is thermal-limited so all you do with an 800V system is gain 3-5 minutes at a 350+kW charger before the battery becomes heat soaked and throttles itself. G

Yes it is thermal limited ....... but the heat generated at 800V charging is a lot less so there is a significant gain, it's not a few minutes. James Prescott Joule discovered an important relationship in the 1800s. Us science and engineering geeks learned in high school that Joule's First Law states H =I² R T (Heat in Joules = Current squared times Resistance times Time). In this case, heat increases exponentially with charging current so we can benefit by reducing the charging current - we can REDUCE heat exponentially.

By Ohm's law (E= I * R) if the charging voltage is doubled from 400v to 800v, the current is half. That halving of the current has an even bigger reduction in the heating because the current is exponential.

Example: Using P=E*I and H =I² R T and a resistance of 4 ohms for 10 seconds:
40,000 watts = 400 volts * 100 Amps; 400,000 joules = 100² amps * 4 ohms * 10 sec
40,000 watts = 800 volts * 50 Amps; 100,000 joules = 50² * 4 * 10 sec

That's a lot less energy lost to heat while providing the same amount of net power. OR, we can significantly INCREASE the power delivered over the same time with the same losses. This is why manufacturers are moving to 800 volt architecture and in the future, even higher.

Asumming we are OK with 400,000 joules of heat we can deliver twice the power in the same time:
80,000 watts = 800 volts * 100 Amps; 400,000 joules = 100² amps * 4 ohms * 10 sec

There are certainly other contributing factors to these equations, but this illustrates the benefit of 800 volt is BIG.

 

[schwartz83]

1. Calibration Issues
2. Cold weather charging
3. Energy density.

Calibration: One of the selling points of LFP is "you get to charge to 100% regularly". It should also be said "you have to charge to 100% regularly". Without getting into details, if you don't charge to 100% regularly the estimated range remaining can be significantly in error and can rapidly and unexpectedly drop to zero. If you are on a trip or a situation where charging to 100% isn't practical this behavior can bite you.

Cold weather charging. LFP can charge very slowly or not at all if the battery pack is cold. NMC can charge slowly too but at least it will accept a charge.

3. LFP vehicles generally have less battery storage and range due to inherently lower energy density.


You can check out a recent Out of Spec video where they unloaded their Rivian R1S with LFP because it just wasn't a practical vehicle.

Thanks!

 

[DuoRivians]

Yes it is thermal limited ....... but the heat generated at 800V charging is a lot less so there is a significant gain, it's not a few minutes. James Prescott Joule discovered an important relationship in the 1800s. Us science and engineering geeks learned in high school that Joule's First Law states H =I² R T (Heat in Joules = Current squared times Resistance times Time). In this case, heat increases exponentially with charging current so we can benefit by reducing the charging current - we can REDUCE heat exponentially.

By Ohm's law (E= I * R) if the charging voltage is doubled from 400v to 800v, the current is half. That halving of the current has an even bigger reduction in the heating because the current is exponential.

Example: Using P=E*I and H =I² R T and a resistance of 4 ohms for 10 seconds:
40,000 watts = 400 volts * 100 Amps; 400,000 joules = 100² amps * 4 ohms * 10 sec
40,000 watts = 800 volts * 50 Amps; 100,000 joules = 50² * 4 * 10 sec

That's a lot less energy lost to heat while providing the same amount of net power. OR, we can significantly INCREASE the power delivered over the same time with the same losses. This is why manufacturers are moving to 800 volt architecture and in the future, even higher.

Asumming we are OK with 400,000 joules of heat we can deliver twice the power in the same time:
80,000 watts = 800 volts * 100 Amps; 400,000 joules = 100² amps * 4 ohms * 10 sec

There are certainly other contributing factors to these equations, but this illustrates the benefit of 800 volt is BIG.

Lucid Earth gets 200 mile of range in 12 minutes of charging. I hope a Rivian can do that one day

 

[Time2Roll]

300 on the road seems like plenty in good conditions. But I get the 400 if only charging to 80% takes it down to 320. Likewise most want 10% arriving at a charger so delete another 40 miles and the real stop is closer to 280 miles maximum. Cold weather reduces even more. Off pavement can extend the space between chargers significantly along with reduced efficiency in sand and gravel etc.

I actually hope the density and cost drop enough to have a 500 mile battery at the current or lower price point. Or a 400 that will fill to 100% very quickly.

 

[Billyk24]

Legacy? Not sure I'd go that far. I understand the sentiment but for daily driving range over 50 miles is irrelevant for most. Most charge at home also making daily range irrelevant. For those with long commutes or regularly long drives, the charge speeds matter more than the range. Add those in very cold weather, then range is probably important on a more regular basis.
You have to consider cost and impact on the environment also when considering range. GM/RAM obviously dont care much about either since they just stick in as much battery (200 kWh+) as possible to get high range figures - efficiency is trash. Which makes the vehicle heavify inefficient and expensive. Tesla and Lucid are efficient so they can reduce the battery sizes. Rivian is somewhere in between - they want to be efficient but they also need larger batteries since they are making more rugged vehicles.

Any battery degradation over time is a myth. I think there's enough studies and research to show EV batteries don't degrade much even after 10 years.

Any battery degradation over time is a myth.........real world results of future and proposed EV's with the 1.0MW charging have yet to be documented. That is a heck of a lot of electrons moving and is the battery thermal regulation robust enough to support such?

 

[usulio]

^^^ This. Range plus charging speed. I've been on too many EV road trips to buy another vehicle without 800V fast charging and 400 miles of range. Batteries are cheap - less than $100 per kwh. Bumping a mid-sized SUV like the R2 to a solid 400 miles requires an extra 20kwh - 25kwh or $2,000-$2,500. That is what Volvo did with the EX60 and BMW with the iX3. There is no substitute for more energy.

You forgot the cost of Re engineering the vehicle to support 400+ pounds and more volume of battery. I wish they’d done it for R2 but I see why they let R1 stay the battery king.

 

[ribuck97]

I think that is right, for you and me who are educated customers. But….as much as I think teslas feel like cheap cars, people look at their tech as way advanced and the pinnacle of EV tech. That’s the average customer. So, if you are looking to grab them, you have a problem.

If Rivian is looking to grab me or you, they are ok. But…we are the much smaller market.

Correct. And I guess thanks for the “educated” compliment.

EV companies in general have a marketing problem. The population in general suffers from range anxiety because we are too used to driving for X amount of time and hitting the nearest gas station. A perhaps decent idea would be for Rivian to drop the tri/quad motors for awhile and use the money towards a hired/subcontract field/at-home sales team which would sit down with buyers going over their home electrical system, level 2 charging setup, electrical rate/plans, and daily/weekly use cases. As a new customer that was potentially ignorant on EV tech, I would 100% love this service and it would also sway me to a company that provided it.

The side effect to this is a single focal point of single/dual motor configurations would be reduced supply chain, increased production, consistency across models, and increased serviceability.

Rivian, in the R1, has a wonderful product. Yes it is twice the cost of my TM3, but it much better of a vehicle. The only reason I’m considering an SUV EV is due to my lifestyle change.

Sorry for the rambles…

 

[Kaiju]

Not sure where you are getting that. I can consistently add 60kwhr at 250+ kw/hr with an 800V car. It holds a curve really well. So it’s about 23 minutes to go from 20-80%, assuming you are at a legit 800V station.

That’s more than a 3 minute savings.

Smaller battery packs have far better charging rates regardless of their voltage so it's somewhat difficult to do apples to apples across manufacturers. The question is mostly as it pertains to Rivian's 400V system and changing it to an 800V system.

Yes it is thermal limited ....... but the heat generated at 800V charging is a lot less so there is a significant gain, it's not a few minutes. James Prescott Joule discovered an important relationship in the 1800s. Us science and engineering geeks learned in high school that Joule's First Law states H =I² R T (Heat in Joules = Current squared times Resistance times Time). In this case, heat increases exponentially with charging current so we can benefit by reducing the charging current - we can REDUCE heat exponentially.

By Ohm's law (E= I * R) if the charging voltage is doubled from 400v to 800v, the current is half. That halving of the current has an even bigger reduction in the heating because the current is exponential.

Example: Using P=E*I and H =I² R T and a resistance of 4 ohms for 10 seconds:
40,000 watts = 400 volts * 100 Amps; 400,000 joules = 100² amps * 4 ohms * 10 sec
40,000 watts = 800 volts * 50 Amps; 100,000 joules = 50² * 4 * 10 sec

That's a lot less energy lost to heat while providing the same amount of net power. OR, we can significantly INCREASE the power delivered over the same time with the same losses. This is why manufacturers are moving to 800 volt architecture and in the future, even higher.

Asumming we are OK with 400,000 joules of heat we can deliver twice the power in the same time:
80,000 watts = 800 volts * 100 Amps; 400,000 joules = 100² amps * 4 ohms * 10 sec

There are certainly other contributing factors to these equations, but this illustrates the benefit of 800 volt is BIG.

Just as an FYI here, it's a lot more complicated than that. Banks of individual cells are put in series to get the pack voltage. That means an 800V pack with the same number of cells has about 4 times the resistance as one with two 400V banks in parallel. There's a lot in the details there about how you can fiddle with configurations. It gets muddier still when someone tries to optimize wire sizes as often one of the touted benefits of 800V is being able to make the conductors smaller for the same power input, which negates reduced resistance.

That said it doesn't change what's going on at the cell level or the amount of heat shed by the chemistry going on during charging. As far as I can tell 800V just allows for a bigger initial energy surge until it hits thermal maximum, with the thermal maximum depending pretty much entirely on the pack mass and its cooling system. I say you only gain a few minutes just by looking at the Silverado EV's charge rates with its enormous battery pack and 800V system. It can charge at higher rates, but its charge time doesn't follow the same line as the difference in the max charge rates vs a 400V system. It most definitely isn't twice as fast. Fast-er, yes, but despite the fact that 350kW is 50% more than 225 kW, it doesn't average 50% faster either.

 

[lefkonj]

The range number is just a single factor. Where do you charge most often? What is your driving style? How often do you do road trips? Where do you do your road trips?

Our I4m50 has low range, lucky to get 200 miles but we have taken it on trips throughout the northeast with no problems, because there are plenty of charging options and the reality is for most of our trips we take our Gen2 R1S, so the BMW's range doesn't really matter since it is local 90% of the time and we have a charger in the garage.

Now if I had to publicly charge 90% of the time and I drove 200-300 a week maybe I would care more.

 

[2kwik4u]

I think that a lot of people are just really overthinking this.

100% this. It's literally as easy as put in destination and follow directions.

The initial setup can be a bit intimidating, but honestly, once plug and charge came along with 2-3 different networks, it's not significantly complicated to just show up, plug in, charge, and move along.

There is a large consort of the population that still things "We have to make good time", for whatever reason. My wife is one of these people. I used to be one of these people. It took about 2 road trips to realize that on our normal (4x a year) 600mi one way road trip.......that it took us an extra 90min in the EV. Went from 9hrs to 10.5hrs. What the hell were we rushing for? So we could sit at the hotel for an extra hour? Get 90min more sleep in the morning? Truth of the matter is we still left around the same time, and we got there a bit later than before. Why the rush? However, she hates it. Thinks it's an absurd waste of time. When she makes the trip herself in her Nissan Rogue she makes two stops at random instead of the three planned stops in the Rivian. Takes her on average 9hrs or so to make the trip. It's 100% a mentality of "we have to hurry up and get there" without any real consideration to what that "saved time" actually means.

SO.....for people like my wife. The 400mi range thing means a single longer stop, and less overall door-to-door time.

Also, one final thought.......you can't really "bonzai run" in an EV. It's not legal, it's a bad idea, but it's happened to me a few times, and it'll be an issue if it happens again with the Rivian. By "bonzai run", I mean the kind of trip that you just need to get there. Sick relative that is on deaths door, or similar where you drive over the limit for extended periods of time and absolutely nothing else is important to you at the moment. The safety patrol around here is going to downvote me to hell, but I don't care. It's a thing I think most of us have or will do, and it's not great with forced charging stops an EV requires. You certainly shouldn't use that situation as something to plan a car purchase around, but I think many people still do.

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