In 4th year of waiting ... beginning to question if the wait is worth it

[the long way downunder]

Whats your take on the Rivian-SDI battery procurement situation? Is it a good move for Rivian to put off JV until the next wave of battery innovation or a mistake not locking in a base of captive supply.

Last I read, Samsung said "rumors of our death are greatly overstated" so I don't know what's really going on. Ford says they're stockpiling. I think that's an overreaction to present day shortages. Tesla and CATL are the two biggest, smartest (most experienced, latest technology) battery makers and they're going to build factories (in China) to build supply that will allow Tesla to continue to increase vehicle unit sales. If I were at Rivian, I'd be wanting a deal with CATL or BYD. I'd also like to be getting Panasonic to build a 4680 structural stuffed with about 200kWh and shoehorn that into the R1. : )
Short term, every EV maker can sell every unit they build, so I think you're right on point that locking in supply is not going to be a mistake and can always build on the relationship to update technology as quickly as it becomes profitable.

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[the long way downunder]

Whats your take on the Rivian-SDI battery procurement situation? Is it a good move for Rivian to put off JV until the next wave of battery innovation or a mistake not locking in a base of captive supply.

If you're curious about the battery industry, this EV reporter in Australia does a great job of keeping on top of the daily news and has a couple of videos on the car makers' differing strategies.
"The Electric Viking"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjzi56cxvmEDwjo1Bd2Yxpg/videos

 

[SeaGeo]

r.e. cooling tech, that Tesla has gone to a heat pump. also, I seem to recall from the Munro teardown and others that have serviced packs (Gruber?) the cooling has improved and is superior to other cooling arrangements inside the pack … the flow of coolant taking shorter routes with more channels … I don't remember the details on how they improved things like avoiding thermal limits (that prevent any pre-Plaid Tesla from developing full power for more than a few minutes before heat soak, but that's more of an issue for track driving or maybe towing in hot weather?)
Also, the LFP is both cheaper, doesn't have the same rare/scarce materials, has better charging characteristics and doesn't exhibit the same degradation.
While I've read of the 4680 structural in production, I don't know if it's even reached a customer yet, but I'm talking in terms of 2018 technology in 2022 thru 2024 (which I imagine is the "version 1.0" life span of the R1.) My suspicion is the "mediocre to poor" charging performance we've seen so far is similar to what a Tesla could do in 2018 … back then 150 kW was damn impressive, even if it lasted only a few minutes. But the e-tron and Taycan and other fast-chargers are raising the bar. I'm optimistic Tesla will deliver a 500+ mile variant of the Plaid in '22 just because they're sort of "compelled" to not give Lucid the bragging rights.

I think people are reading too much into the use of a heat pump with regards to heating cooling the battery specifically. At least from my understanding, for cooling a heat pump is conceptually doing the same thing an A/C is. For Heating the pack, Rivian has chosen to pull heat from the motors.

Keeping keeping things cool during hard driving is as much about pack design as the actual heat pump. For example, the Mach E heat pack seems to structure to keep cool due to the pack design itself. Whereas there are other cars that perform on-limit quite well.

The 150kw we saw from TFL is *not* the limit of the pack. I've seen several folks gets 180+kw so far, which isn't a limit of the cells. It's a limit of the charger and/or pack design. Assuming they have a way to get up to 300kw as both MotorTrend and CarandDriver have reported, that's not an issue. The e-tron GT and taycan are sitting on 800v architectures. The two major car magazines have said they've confirmed Rivian has a pathway to similar charging performance (likely by splitting the pack) with 300kw+ charging. That's basically the same approach GM is taking with their designs as well.

 

[GaryL]

If you're curious about the battery industry, this EV reporter in Australia does a great job of keeping on top of the daily news and has a couple of videos on the car makers' differing strategies.
"The Electric Viking"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjzi56cxvmEDwjo1Bd2Yxpg/videos

Thanks

 

[mini2nut]

Rivian doesn't need to offer a Dual Motor trim for 2022. They are barely ramping up Quad Motor production and a lower priced trim level isn't needed at this time.

I read that R1T deliveries to the general public will start next month.

 

[LoneStar]

Did Rivian headquarters slide into the Pacific? Did a meteor hit Normal, IL?

What the hell happened to Rivian's (already very poor) comms department?

 

[jjwolf120]

Did Rivian headquarters slide into the Pacific? Did a meteor hit Normal, IL?

Yes to both. You must not have been paying attention to the news.

 

[Edax Rerum]

I was an early reservation holder, but I grew tired of waiting by 2020. When the Taycan was officially announced, I contacted the local dealer. Total wait time (from contacting the dealer to receiving the car) was less than one year.

I'd still like a Rivian, but I was going for the R1S which isn't even being delivered yet. I have no idea how long I would've been waiting, and this way I have my EV. I hope Rivian succeeds so I can buy one when they're reaching production goals.

 

[turbome]

I'll spell it out here, it's easier. There are 2 primary areas of differentiation for me personally: 1) Capabilities/Functionality and 2) Brand/Styling

There really is no other EV on the market now (or coming to market) that has the capabilities of a Rivian:

• 0-60 in ~3.2sec, 835 HP, 908lb-ft torque
• Up to 15" ground clearance, 3' wading depth with adjustable ride height
• Handles like a sportscar, adaptive suspension
• More off-road capability than vast majority of dedicated, purpose-built off-road vehicles
• Luxury interior and features
• 300-400mi range
• Comfortable seating for 4+

In fact, there is really no other VEHICLE with these capabilities (ICE or EV).

Brand / Styling is completely subjective, but:

• Fresh, unique and different, but not obnoxious/robotic (unlike a Tesla Cybertruck)
• Modern, innovative, but still slightly rugged (unlike Tesla)
• Luxurious, higher ed, stylish, but functional

Bottom line is I don't want to buy an EV truck/SUV from a legacy ICE manufacturer like GM or Toyota...and I want a Tesla Cybertruck even less. I want to buy an EV truck/SUV from a clean-sheet, innovative manufacturer that wants to evolve the old, tired automobile industry experience that sits somewhere in between Tesla and GM...and Rivian is that manufacturer.

As to how long I'd wait... as of next month it'll be 3yrs, and I'm betting I'll wait at least another 6 months or so beyond that before I take delivery of a Rivian R1T. Unfortunately for us, at this moment there is really no other vehicle/manufacturer that is anywhere near delivering all of the things mentioned above. Considering I've owned my current daily driver for just under 10yrs, and have been very happy with it, waiting even another year to get the right vehicle pencils out.

I know one ICE that pretty much has the same specs if not better for most categories you are quoting. The Ram TRX has Rivian pretty much beat at all the specs you list except the 0-60 time which is close (Ram underestimates the official number) and the "handles like a sports car" which is BS anyway. No truck or SUV can handle like a true sports car just due to physics. They might handle very well or much better than some other cars/trucks but trying to compare a new C8 Corvette or a late model Ferrari to any SUV or truck handling makes no sense. The Ram starts at about $75k so price is even comparable. The Ram is more luxurious inside and has more room inside. It will also blow the Rivian away at high speed off roading. I purchased one back in May of 2021 and love everything about it except the gas mileage which I knew going in.

That being said, I am a pre-order holder since July 2019 and am hoping my March-April delivery date is still close although I doubt it. Once the Rivian arrives, I will decide which truck I will keep for my daily driver. It is hard to imagine using the Rivian for towing any distance over 100 miles with the issues of having to attempt a charge while attached to a trailer which is what prompted me to get the Ram last year.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Any idea if the production line has restarted after the fire a few days ago?

 

[the long way downunder]

I know one ICE that pretty much has the same specs if not better for most categories you are quoting. The Ram TRX has Rivian pretty much beat at all the specs you list except the 0-60 time which is close (Ram underestimates the official number) and the "handles like a sports car" which is BS anyway. No truck or SUV can handle like a true sports car just due to physics. They might handle very well or much better than some other cars/trucks but trying to compare a new C8 Corvette or a late model Ferrari to any SUV or truck handling makes no sense. The Ram starts at about $75k so price is even comparable. The Ram is more luxurious inside and has more room inside. It will also blow the Rivian away at high speed off roading. I purchased one back in May of 2021 and love everything about it except the gas mileage which I knew going in.

That being said, I am a pre-order holder since July 2019 and am hoping my March-April delivery date is still close although I doubt it. Once the Rivian arrives, I will decide which truck I will keep for my daily driver. It is hard to imagine using the Rivian for towing any distance over 100 miles with the issues of having to attempt a charge while attached to a trailer which is what prompted me to get the Ram last year.

The TRX can't tow much, but with equivalent tires instead of 35s it would near as damn it equal to the R1.
Same for the Raptor R.
Those trucks will sell hundreds or a few thousands and then they're old news with terrible resale value (in part because you can't trust the owner of a factory hot rod truck hasn't given it a "rid hard, put up wet" life.)
Electric EV are going to sell a couple of million in the next few years. : )

 

[Craigins]

Any idea if the production line has restarted after the fire a few days ago?

once is enough.

 

[sierraskier]

I know one ICE that pretty much has the same specs if not better for most categories you are quoting. The Ram TRX has Rivian pretty much beat at all the specs you list except the 0-60 time which is close (Ram underestimates the official number) and the "handles like a sports car" which is BS anyway. No truck or SUV can handle like a true sports car just due to physics. They might handle very well or much better than some other cars/trucks but trying to compare a new C8 Corvette or a late model Ferrari to any SUV or truck handling makes no sense. The Ram starts at about $75k so price is even comparable. The Ram is more luxurious inside and has more room inside. It will also blow the Rivian away at high speed off roading. I purchased one back in May of 2021 and love everything about it except the gas mileage which I knew going in.

That being said, I am a pre-order holder since July 2019 and am hoping my March-April delivery date is still close although I doubt it. Once the Rivian arrives, I will decide which truck I will keep for my daily driver. It is hard to imagine using the Rivian for towing any distance over 100 miles with the issues of having to attempt a charge while attached to a trailer which is what prompted me to get the Ram last year.

I'm glad you like your TRX, it's good to get real world feedback. While the TRX is probably the closest competitive vehicle (being a truck with a lot of power), the Rivian just handily beat the TRX in both TFL's and Car and Driver's acceleration test for 0-60 ...and certainly wins the 1/4mi as well. I'll concede that R1T doesn't handle quite like the best sports cars, but I will gladly put some money down that it also beats the TRX in handling and cornering ....and handles better on road than any other truck that can do everything the R1T can do off-road. The TRX may win high speed off-road, but I'll also wager the R1T can do things the TRX can't, such as steep technical climbs. We also know for certain that the TRX can't do a tank turn I didn't mention towing because it's not a huge factor for me, and it's pretty well understood that EV's suck at towing, so yeah if you need to tow long distances then you probably shouldn't be looking at any EV.

As far as being "more luxurious", as I said before that's purely subjective. Personally I prefer the Rivian styling and slightly smaller, medium size of the R1T over the TRX.

Also, while the TRX at $78K is comparable on acquisition cost to the RIT, you're also paying for fuel and all the ICE maintenance costs and hassle, which are non-existent in the R1T so the total cost of ownership is definitely much higher.

We could probably debate all day about which specific, nuanced use-cases each truck is better at, the point of my post was to summarize the key differentiators that were factors to me and why I would wait for the Rivian - per the NYT reporters original question. One of the other biggest factors for me is to support a new company that's taking a new approach to the entire car purchasing and ownership experience, and Ram nor any of the other legacy ICE manufacturers offer anything here.

 

[yizzung]

Nissan has the Leaf. I wouldn't recommend anything EV from them based on the Leaf experiences. Toyota (supposedly) announced their EV Tacoma, but we wont see those for a few.



What? You're not wrong. 5 Guys is the SHIZNET!

Yep, I think I meant more in concept than in actuality. (Which is fitting because most manufacturers just have concept cars today…) There’s just not much out there.

 

[Sacagawea]

I expected delays and challenges, being that they are a brand new car company making a brand new vehicle. Really I'm more frustrated with the complete and total lack of any consistent communication and inability to hit basic commitments/milestones. It really makes it seem as if:

1) there is little to no planning or organization...you know, the basic blocking and tackling to make/deliver/support products, and...

2) they just don't give a shit


Personally, I think the best course of action is to lower all expectations, forget about delivery and quit lurking on this forum for about 3 months

Been holding back but now I can't anymore. Someone said, "only worth the wait if you"re young". Well, I'm not young. Should I continue to take years waiting? I have life experience which allows me to set what I think are reasonable expectations which Rivian is not currently meeting.
I was the one who encouraged my husband to put his name on the Tesla wait list for an early (not the first) X editions 5 1/2 years ago. I understood what a wait could be for the R1T. But the more I read and hear about Rivian the more I wonder if it's worth it. Not happy with decisions being made by the company right now.
The thoughtful process that went into choosing Normal, IL for a plant I feel is nullified by choosing Georgia for another plant. (GEORGIA for many reasons) Great that Edmonds and every other exterior evaluation has been made but feel it's a marketing ploy each time Rivian posts the results. Disappointed that
1) the schedule changed and changed again; first it was May, then June, then September
2) the only vehicles delivered were to employees who
3) are restricted from saying anything in public
4) the many deliveries to Amazon instead of R1Ts and R1S to those waiting years for vehicles
5) making Amazon their priority over those of us with deposits
6) not meeting end of year expectations for 2021 (significantly)
7) and what happened to test drives? How many years do I have to be on the list? That's with me being available in 3 cities in the U.S (one Eastcoast, another is Chicago, & one in Southwest)
8) Rivian communications have been TERRIBLE!
My husband was going to reserve an R1S depending on my experience. Now has his name on the list for a Lucid!

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