In 4th year of waiting ... beginning to question if the wait is worth it

[Deleted member 5294]

Florida here, their 'supposed' inception state, and we have nada except for Hialeah.com Rivian-wise. Get in line

?? misery loves company.. I am enjoying these forums.

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[the long way downunder]

@the long way downunder I'm only halfway through this thread but I must say I do not agree with this statement:

Mainly the heat pump part. Firstly the R1's have a heat pump that is unidirectional and cools the cabin commonly called an air conditioner. Compressor condenser units work well to change the air temperature across the coil by about 50 dergrees or so. They struggle to get much more than that out of the modern "eco friendly" refrigerants and become less efficient near the margins. This means in -10F temps they can heat air across the coil to maybe 50 degrees which is not enough without some other heat source to supplement. While heat pumps have an efficiency advantage over resistive heating in the mid band they are also far more complex, require more maintenance, loose efficency over time, and are less reliable than resistive heating. Resistive heaters not only work well in very cold climates they are also far cheaper than heat pumps. I prefer Rivians approach. I believe Tesla is currently having some issues with their heat pump system it may turn out that Tesla's strategy was a mistake. I believe Telsla can make their system function adequately but don't agree its inherently better because they use a heat pump.

You're retracing the heat-pump "debate" that started with Tesla and the Model Y years ago. I think the first comparison was @teslabjorn in 2020 when he had a Model 3. It's no longer a debatable topic.
Under nominal conditions, the heat pump "octovalve" in the Y is state of the art and is "inherently" better by the numbers – fewer parts, cheaper, lighter, smaller and functions more efficiently, capable of cooling or heating battery and cabin. In worst case conditions (extreme cold) the Tesla implementation has limits (which I think are under review by the regulators to see if consumer complaints are valid … spoiler: they're valid. : )

It's not just whether a heat element and an a/c compressor can work efficiently (they can't because they both function by wasting energy in conversion and work losses) it's that the whole thermal management system in an EV has advanced since 2018 to waste less energy.
That's not to say the R1 is obsolete, I know enough to know I don't know enough about the R1 (yet) to have a fixed opinion. I'm waiting for Munro to tear down the R1T and then I'll have an opinion. Things like thermal management involve regen and braking, even air drag over radiators are significant. From this comfy side of the keyboard, I'm looking forward to my R1T, but I still expect Rivian to make it old news as quickly as possible.

It's like looking at the Mach-e (hundreds of components) cobbled together to bring a product to market, compared to the Model Y in 2022 (the state of the art resulting from years of iterative upgrades from the newest battery management to mega-casting and everything in-between.) The Mach-e is a very popular vehicle for Ford with some brilliant engineering in the motors for example. But it doesn't hold a candle to the Y.

The R1 will sell every unit Rivian can build for years to come, but that doesn't let Rivian rest.

If I was at Rivian, I'd see the R1 as handed over to production and it's the outgoing model. I'd be focused on upgrades and innovation I can bring to market in '22 and '23 and '24 to stay ahead of GM and Ford in two categories.
Feature-function-benefit specifics:
* single piece retracting glass, fully removable mid-gate
* 10kW onboard power with V2V and V2G
* rear-wheel steering
* fast-acting air suspension
* 360º cameras with spotter mode and underbody view with washers
* load-flat frunk with the nose in the hood
* fully sealed bed cap from a third party made in the USA similar to the RSI Smart Cap
Technology performance:
* 800V blade packs as a structural "stressed member" upgradeable component.
* curb weight below 6000lbs
* 500+ mile range
* autonomy
* remote control driverless maneuvering (Tesla "summon")

 

[the long way downunder]

The whole idea of Model Year and having an "outdated" truck because it was delivered later than you wanted is legacy thinking. All manufacturers are going to move away from Model Year idea over the next few years. It will be more like computer and phone cycles. There will be no difference between a Model Year 2022 Ford Lighting and a Model Year 2023 Ford Lightning. Just think of it as Ford Lightning V1.

Once again, Tesla started this concept and the others are following. Frankly, it's a better system.

fwiw. Tesla has always had a model year underlying its product. It was just the marketing mopes that tried to use the "reality distortion field" to have the Tesla enthusiasts repeat this entirely false and baseless idea that Tesla doesn't have model years.
It's just not possible to have R&D, engineering, quality, production, documentation, field service and support all working on an ever-changing product spec.
Just look at every January-February.
Most recently the "latest, greatest" Model S Plaid was introduced mid-2021 … but the body was updated … in January. The latest, greatest Model Y in mid-2021 … updated to 4680 structural … in January. Same in 2019. Same in 2018 and 2017. Speaking from experience in owning Teslas since the first Model S Insane (which arrived without Insane, without the high capacity electronics, without even the Sport seats … all of which arrived … the following January … : )

 

[IlliniRivian]

I am bummed at the fact that “3 years into the order” I have no idea what I am getting into, meaning can I see a vehicle or get to feel it. I asked them, I am willing to drive to NY from Boston to check out a vehicle in person and their response was an option in California. Seriously? Apparently they don’t exist in the north east coast. All I get to see is their marketing BS. I am starting to get concerned about R1’s ability to sustain in cold weather

The Chicago auto show starts tonight and Rivian does not even have a booth. I want them focused on production but I can't believe they can't get at least an R1T to one of the nation's largest auto shows 2 hours up the road from Normal.

 

[E.S.]

If I was at Rivian, I'd see the R1 as handed over to production and it's the outgoing model. I'd be focused on upgrades and innovation I can bring to market in '22 and '23 and '24 to stay ahead of GM and Ford in two categories.
Feature-function-benefit specifics:
* single piece retracting glass, fully removable mid-gate
* 10kW onboard power with V2V and V2G
* rear-wheel steering
* fast-acting air suspension
* 360º cameras with spotter mode and underbody view with washers
* load-flat frunk with the nose in the hood
* fully sealed bed cap from a third party made in the USA similar to the RSI Smart Cap
Technology performance:
* 800V blade packs as a structural "stressed member" upgradeable component.
* curb weight below 6000lbs
* 500+ mile range
* autonomy
* remote control driverless maneuvering (Tesla "summon")

There are issues with some of the features you're bringing up (1 or 2 are personal).

retracting glass - could you elaborate further on what exactly your mean here as I do not want to misinterpret what glass specifically you speak of.

rear steering - this can and will likely cause a an issue regarding perfecting Tank turning, a feature that is also not needed, but I highly prefer over 4 wheel steering.

Frunk with nose in the hood - This will likely have water seep into it if one is caught in the uncommon occasion where they have to waterford in deep h2O for a vehicle. Ford is likely going to have leak problems cause of this.

Curb weight - batteries are the offenders in this category. The truck will shed some pounds once Rivian starts deploying use of lighter weight batteries such as graphene and solid state. Something every EV is at the mercy of waiting for the tech to advance enough for those two battery types to become a common, inexpensive implement.

500+ range - refer to battery comment above in Curb weight response.

Autonomy and remote control driverless manuevering - these two are personal. I want to enjoy my Rivian. Autonomy just makes one lazy. Regarding remote control, driverless maneuvering, not only does this feature have a LONG way to go regarding getting perfected, but it also adds to the laziness factor. This is an Adventure vehicle. GO ADVENTURE IN IT, not have it do it for you.

 

[ironpig]

fwiw. Tesla has always had a model year underlying its product. It was just the marketing mopes that tried to use the "reality distortion field" to have the Tesla enthusiasts repeat this entirely false and baseless idea that Tesla doesn't have model years.
It's just not possible to have R&D, engineering, quality, production, documentation, field service and support all working on an ever-changing product spec.
Just look at every January-February.
Most recently the "latest, greatest" Model S Plaid was introduced mid-2021 … but the body was updated … in January. The latest, greatest Model Y in mid-2021 … updated to 4680 structural … in January. Same in 2019. Same in 2018 and 2017. Speaking from experience in owning Teslas since the first Model S Insane (which arrived without Insane, without the high capacity electronics, without even the Sport seats … all of which arrived … the following January … : )

no. I’ve had a Tesla since 2014. Tesla has never used Model year as a definition when updating Or refreshing a car. The only reason the cars have model years is for registration purposes. Tesla has never aimed or marketed a refreshed product as “new for 2020” like traditional car manufacturers. The refreshes happen when they decide for them to happen. Just look at what’s going onwith the Model X right now. The refresh has been delayed for months but they aren’t going to sell you a 2021 Model X in 2022. The year only denotes when you get the car.

 

[Bullitt]

no. I’ve had a Tesla since 2014. Tesla has never used Model year as a definition when updating Or refreshing a car. The only reason the cars have model years is for registration purposes. Tesla has never aimed or marketed a refreshed product as “new for 2020” like traditional car manufacturers. The refreshes happen when they decide for them to happen. Just look at what’s going onwith the Model X right now. The refresh has been delayed for months but they aren’t going to sell you a 2021 Model X in 2022. The year only denotes when you get the car.

I can confirm this. My model 3 has an LFP battery in it. I was one of the first to get it when they did that in October 2021. BTW, the LFP battery is awesome! 100% charge every time. They changed a few other items in the car in 2021 that changed at different times. It wasn’t a full refresh for my21 cars

 

[ERguy]

The Chicago auto show starts tonight and Rivian does not even have a booth. I want them focused on production but I can't believe they can't get at least an R1T to one of the nation's largest auto shows 2 hours up the road from Normal.

Skipping the Chicago Auto Show seems like a really odd decision. I understand they already have more orders than they can fulfill in the near future, but I can't fathom why they wouldn't want to increase their brand recognition and create more interest in their vehicles by displaying them at an auto show just down the road from their factory.

Both the F150 Lightning and the Silverado EV are on display at the show. Rivian realizes a lot of people are cross-shopping all of these vehicles right now... Right?

 

[Bullitt]

Skipping the Chicago Auto Show seems like a really odd decision. I understand they already have more orders than they can fulfill in the near future, but I can't fathom why they wouldn't want to increase their brand recognition and create more interest in their vehicles by displaying them at an auto show just down the road from their factory.

Having a booth at the show and being at the show with trucks are 2 different things. I expected to be at CES in January to help show off our entry into the EV space, but didnt happen. Most companies are still not paying for reservations for floor space to only have to bail on it. I expect you’ll see Rivian there, just outside!

 

[ERguy]

Having a booth at the show and being at the show with trucks are 2 different things. I expected to be at CES in January to help show off our entry into the EV space, but didnt happen. Most companies are still not paying for reservations for floor space to only have to bail on it. I expect you’ll see Rivian there, just outside!

What do you mean by "our entry into the EV space..."?

Do you work for Rivian?

Also, both Ford and Chevy have their EV trucks on display at the auto show. If they can put on a display with their prototypes and preproduction trucks, surely Rivian can display their vehicles which are supposedly rolling off the assembly line at a rate of 200/week now. Seems like Rivian dropped the ball for anyone going there to browse the new EV trucks while still finalizing purchase decisions.

 

[Bullitt]

What do you mean by "our entry into the EV space..."?

Do you work for Rivian?

Also, both Ford and Chevy have their EV trucks on display at the auto show. Seems like Rivian dropped the ball for anyone going there to browse the new EV trucks while still finalizing purchase decisions.

I do not work for Rivian — sorry to disappoint. I work for an entertainment/electronics company that announced cars at the show. Outside the show there was a lot more “show” for those whose companies didnt want them onsite, in the building.

 

[rivianfan1]

I doubt the benefit was half price, there was some discussion earlier indicating employees would get a 1k a month stipend for 2 years.

We should know on March 10th if they were heavily discounted by dividing sales units by income.

That is correct, I am including the EV tax credit and any car they might have exchanged it for.

 

[mgc0216]

?? misery loves company.. I am enjoying these forums.

masochist

 

[the long way downunder]

no. I’ve had a Tesla since 2014. Tesla has never used Model year as a definition when updating Or refreshing a car. The only reason the cars have model years is for registration purposes. Tesla has never aimed or marketed a refreshed product as “new for 2020” like traditional car manufacturers. The refreshes happen when they decide for them to happen. Just look at what’s going onwith the Model X right now. The refresh has been delayed for months but they aren’t going to sell you a 2021 Model X in 2022. The year only denotes when you get the car.

With respect, I think you're listening to what Tesla says instead of seeing what they do.
As for model year, that's a combination of the VIN regulations and quotas (out of the control of the manufacturer) not that Tesla hits any quota limits. I didn't write anything about model year cutoffs, just the recurring pattern of Tesla introducing new features and updates.

 

[the long way downunder]

I can confirm this. My model 3 has an LFP battery in it. I was one of the first to get it when they did that in October 2021. BTW, the LFP battery is awesome! 100% charge every time. They changed a few other items in the car in 2021 that changed at different times. It wasn’t a full refresh for my21 cars

True, the 3 in '21 was catching up with the Y and benefiting from the R&D that goes into the Y. I imagine Tesla wouldn't want to wait one more unit than necessary before implementing the cost advantages of the LFP pack. My comment pertains to the annual patterns most visible in the first quarter each year (not clockwork, but recurring.) Tesla has maintained the marketing message of continuous innovation or whatever but they've also seen they can't escape the Osborne Effect – the S Plaid being an example where customers didn't want a Nov/Dec built '21 model year vehicle and Tesla was actively communicating with customers to say that attempts to defer delivery to '22 and speculate on EV tax credits would not be accommodated. People who deferred nonetheless (at least in my personal experience) found their order was not cancelled and lo and behold, the S got a body facelift and news of the Y with 4680 structural (in my opinion) bodes well for the Plaid to get a significant upgrade in '22 (and hopefully to exceed the 520 miles' range of the Lucid.) Anyway, I'm not asserting Tesla has a model year product cycle, just that there is a recurring pattern of updates arriving after the push to end the 4th quarter, usually coming with price adjustments … the stuff of model year product management.

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