Anyone change to a Dual Motor?

[theyoungone]

After running a bunch of numbers and looking at likely range increase and charge times now that we know it's going to stay 450V and likely only 165 kWh instead of 180 kWh, I opted to drop to the Quad+Large. Just not convinced there's enough benefit at $5.5-8k more and only 25-30 mi extra while towing or ~70 mi unladen all while taking longer to charge since it won't get any more than the current 220 kW.

Exactly this. Which is why I think we may see a price increase on the Quad motor again. It just makes zero sense for 5-8K more for only a 70 miles price increase. But then again who knows.

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[Rivian_Hugh_III]

Just wondering what Rivian did / how they handled that change. While we're enjoying the R1T we also have a R1S (Oct-Dec '23 Delivery, pre markup order) on order for my wife. She wants / likes the 21' tires which will give us the best range, but I'm thinking that with the Dual motor we might eek out a little more range and to be honest she has zero need for the quad.

While we can only make assumptions here, I'm thinking that there's a CHANCE (small) that the Rivian in house dual motor will be based on 800v system which could help charging times plus having 2 less motors should give a small bump in range. This car is going to be the family car so taking the little monsters all over the place and road trips here and there.

Could be dreaming but hey it's Christmas and totally fine to dream away. But really if anyone changed their preorder i'd love to hear from ya!

I believe dual motor will be 400v. I’ll wait for driving reviews from magazines and customers who get to drive both. If it gets five stars I’ll happily take Dual Max. If the reviews are on the fence I’ll be on the fence about following through with my purchase. I want Max and I want advanced driving dynamics.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

After running a bunch of numbers and looking at likely range increase and charge times now that we know it's going to stay 450V and likely only 165 kWh instead of 180 kWh, I opted to drop to the Quad+Large. Just not convinced there's enough benefit at $5.5-8k more and only 25-30 mi extra while towing or ~70 mi unladen all while taking longer to charge since it won't get any more than the current 220 kW.

It was the same analysis for me as well, the likely drop to 165kWh pack instead of 180 turned into more of an efficiency boost to get close to 400 miles rather than 180 still being the pack size and increases based on that.

I went Quad Large after listening to the Rivian Stories and the drive train VP's comments about the quad still being their halo drivetrain in all circumstances. THe lack of range 525km w/road tires, 465km w/AT's sucks a bit from what I was preparing myself for, but we'll just make it work.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

Just wondering what Rivian did / how they handled that change. While we're enjoying the R1T we also have a R1S (Oct-Dec '23 Delivery, pre markup order) on order for my wife. She wants / likes the 21' tires which will give us the best range, but I'm thinking that with the Dual motor we might eek out a little more range and to be honest she has zero need for the quad.

While we can only make assumptions here, I'm thinking that there's a CHANCE (small) that the Rivian in house dual motor will be based on 800v system which could help charging times plus having 2 less motors should give a small bump in range. This car is going to be the family car so taking the little monsters all over the place and road trips here and there.

Could be dreaming but hey it's Christmas and totally fine to dream away. But really if anyone changed their preorder i'd love to hear from ya!

I believe dual motor will be 400v. I’ll wait for driving reviews from magazines and customers who get to drive both. If it gets five stars I’ll happily take Dual Max. If the reviews are on the fence I’ll be on the fence about following through with my purchase. I want Max and I want advanced driving dynamics.

Unfortunately it's been officially confirmed the motors are 400V. They didn't want to have to redo several of the sub components to allow for 800V at this juncture. Simplicity and cross product components while key to Rivian's success going forward, it was a bit disappointing, and made switching to Quad Large from Max an easier pill to swallow.

 

[Taco]

That does make sense. Where did you hear the confirmation? Thanks!

 

[MountainBikeDude]

That does make sense. Where did you hear the confirmation? Thanks!

I'm assuming you're asking me. Listen to the whole podcast, but the specific 400V architecture, or more accurately 450V architecture vs 800V comes up at the 19 minute mark.

 

[markp]

I wondered that as well, but when he said "through brakes, we can apply some amount of torque variation left or right" and "about half the torque, in some cases, a bit more, but roughly half the torque to the wheel on the ground" he's speaking to that particular axles power. The clincher was when said "in some cases a bit more"

If you could get all the power to one wheel through brakes, then the one being held by the brakes would need to be held quite firm to not be overcome by the motors power, but then also not so much that it can't sense when it is indeed in contact with a surface that can provide the appropriate traction.

I'm curious what the power ratio is between wheels on a traditional drivetrain. If I say put my 4x4 in 4 wheel drive, could all the power be moved to a single wheel through brakes, or is it a similar fraction?

I'm not an expert by any means, but from reading into differential design an open differential always sends equal torque to both sides. In worst case limited traction conditions like if one tire is in the air, half of the applied motor torque will be wasted in the brakes (the other half moves the vehicle). A limited slip with a clutch pack or viscous coupling, or a locking diff is needed to apply unequal torque across the axle.

Again, I'm not an expert but it seems like slightly less than half the maximum motor torque can be applied to the wheel with traction since the slipping wheel needs some slip for the computer to calculate how much brake force to apply?

Traditional 4x4's have hundreds of permutations, but a vehicle with 3 locking diffs can theoretically apply all the engine's power to a single wheel when all diffs are locked.

I personally have a reservation for a max quad but I have almost convinced myself to switch to the large quad with the recent less than thrilling news around the dual max. Just waiting to hear if any new revelations come out about the dual max in the next few months before my number comes up.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

I'm not an expert by any means, but from reading into differential design an open differential always sends equal torque to both sides. In worst case limited traction conditions like if one tire is in the air, half of the applied motor torque will be wasted in the brakes (the other half moves the vehicle). A limited slip with a clutch pack or viscous coupling, or a locking diff is needed to apply unequal torque across the axle.

Again, I'm not an expert but it seems like slightly less than half the maximum motor torque can be applied to the wheel with traction since the slipping wheel needs some slip for the computer to calculate how much brake force to apply?

Traditional 4x4's have hundreds of permutations, but a vehicle with 3 locking diffs can theoretically apply all the engine's power to a single wheel when all diffs are locked.

I personally have a reservation for a max quad but I have almost convinced myself to switch to the large quad with the recent less than thrilling news around the dual max. Just waiting to hear if any new revelations come out about the dual max in the next few months before my number comes up.

When they dropped the quad max, I lost the patience I had in getting this far and to '24. After the email, then the "Drive Modes Decoded" feature and the subsequent pod cast round table, it was obvious the dual was a cost compromise. Still 95% capable, but what sold me was when their drivetrain VP touched on driving one, then hopping in the other, and the quad being the superior driving experience.

My single engine, electronic locking rear diff (brakes) 4x4 has never let me down. But I can't tell you how stoked I am to step into the Quad motor future. My colleague the other day on our way to lunch laughed as we bounced over the speed bumps and said "the day you get that rivian, your mind is going to be so blown"

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