Anyone else completely disappointed that MaxPack battery not available until 2023?

[sierraskier]

As a reminder to all regarding Rivian's initial strategy, see below my confirmation email from March 8th, 2019 for my order. Note the commitment to do the MAX pack FIRST...

They lied.

​

​ Your Rivian preorder is confirmed. If at any time you decide you'd like to switch models, no need to cancel your order and lose your place in line — when it’s time to configure your vehicle, you’ll be able to switch between the R1T and R1S. Production will begin in 2020. Fully equipped vehicles with the highest performance level and largest battery pack will enter production first. Our 180 kWh and 135 kWh packs will be available at launch with the 105 kWh to follow in 2021. Let the adventure begin. View Details​ Please Note: You can cancel your preorder and receive a full refund at anytime by sending an email to [email protected]. Rivian will execute your refund within 3 business days. Depending on your bank, you may not be able to access the refunded amount for up to 7 days.

"Lied" may be a bit of a stretch...I don't think the company willfully deceived customers or the public. Some of the circumstances have changed, which I understand happens and is life.

Look, I am a die hard Rivian supporter, as I'm sure most people here are. I desperately want them to succeed.

HOWEVER, no matter how you slice it, the pushing of the Max Pack is a significant departure from the original commitment and continually stated strategy. Every company at some point misses a customer expectation or stumbles and you often find out the true identity of a company in times of challenge. Unfortunately, Rivian's track record on communication to date has not been stellar. I hope they can course correct, acknowledge, and improve before irreparable damage is done to credibility. Credibility and customer trust are the hardest things to attain and easiest to destroy

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[cmiller]

Everyone talks about rivians communication, but after going through getting a bronco with horrendous communication, missed deadlines, and just a complete shit show with a reservation system I have no hope that any car company can get it right. If a company that has been around for over a 100 yr can screw everything up I have little faith that rivian won't hit snags

 

[Toothmiester]

This is the first I heard that they'd only be building Large Pack R1T in 2022. Really wanted the MaxPack for longer range.

But I do not want to wait another 18 months or longer for my Rivian. I'm very disappointed in Rivian for not getting this information out sooner.

I'm going to take the range hit and go with the Large Pack. If you were holding out for the MaxPack, what have you decided?

My pre-order is July 2019. If I wait for MaxPack, that's 4 years! No thanks. "first half of 2023" means, what, August-September-October 2023?

 

[TN2NFL80]

Greetings. As my previous posts attest, I’ve gone back and forth between whether to change to the large pack versus my original max order. In the end, there’s too much in the air as this string has detailed and so I’m sticking with the max and selling the 5 year old RX 450 hybrid and getting the GX 460 as a bridge to the max…whenever that happens. I was told first half of ‘23 but as I need the range for over-landing in retirement shortly, it’s the best solution. Cheers.

 

[Toothmiester]

This is the first I heard that they'd only be building Large Pack R1T in 2022. Really wanted the MaxPack for longer range.

But I do not want to wait another 18 months or longer for my Rivian. I'm very disappointed in Rivian for not getting this information out sooner.

I'm going to take the range hit and go with the Large Pack. If you were holding out for the MaxPack, what have you decided?

My pre-order is July 2019. If I wait for MaxPack, that's 4 years! No thanks. "first half of 2023" means, what, August-September-October 2023?

I for one am very disappointed. I sensed over a year ago that they wouldn't or couldn't follow thru on their commitments and I put down a pre order on a Lucid Grand Touring. I just converted that to a final order and expect to receive my Lucid in March or April. Rivian over promised and under delivered and I am not waiting that long for a new truck. I will be canceling my preorder and perhaps some of you will move up but don't hold your breath. These deliver windows are not etched in stone and I would not be shocked if your orders will be delayed further. Rivian has lost a customer and I will never buy a vehicle from them because of this Max Pack fiasco.

 

[mweingar]

^most important part of that email, bud

"bud", I like that. Thanks for the clear indicator that you aren't here to add to the conversation, simply to poke others. Thanks for the participation Rividiot. The reward is in the mail.

As previously indicated, I will in fact start looking while keep my likely fictional place in line for something that meets my needs sooner then late next year.

 

[Riviot]

"bud", I like that. Thanks for the clear indicator that you aren't here to add to the conversation, simply to poke others. Thanks for the participation Rividiot. The reward is in the mail.

As previously indicated, I will in fact start looking while keep my likely fictional place in line for something that meets my needs sooner then late next year.

I'm sorry to hear Rivian isn't living up to your expectations. Neither did I for my first wife, must be why I'm sticking with my reservation ??‍

We all go through the stages of reservation grief at different speeds, and that's okay. I can't change anything so here I wait. I'll be happy to lend you my keys and give you a ride if I get mine before you, we're in this together. Kirkland ain't far from me!

Also, Riviot is the portmanteau of Rivian and Idiot we gave ourselves for sticking with this crazy company. Much easier off the tongue than Rividiot. And it fits on my license plate ?

 

[Monkey]

Everyone talks about rivians communication, but after going through getting a bronco with horrendous communication, missed deadlines, and just a complete shit show with a reservation system I have no hope that any car company can get it right. If a company that has been around for over a 100 yr can screw everything up I have little faith that rivian won't hit snags

Rivian’s communication is no worse than anyone else in the industry. In fact, it’s better than most automakers. Which, IMO, is still not good enough. I know their hands have been tied somewhat with the IPO and massive new hiring and training efforts. But I think they do need to be more forthcoming as production ramps up this year.

Compared to Ford and what has transpired with the Bronco, and now happening with the Lightning, I’ll gladly take a chance with Rivian. The one who has really surprised me in terms of communication and hitting production targets over this past year has been GM. Mary seems to be running a tight ship…. Can’t say I’m a huge fan of their products, but the renewed EV effort is impressive and I look forward to the Silverado EV reveal on Wednesday.

 

[cmiller]

Rivian’s communication is no worse than anyone else in the industry. In fact, it’s better than most automakers. Which, IMO, is still not good enough. I know their hands have been tied somewhat with the IPO and massive new hiring and training efforts. But I think they do need to be more forthcoming as production ramps up this year.

Compared to Ford and what has transpired with the Bronco, and now happening with the Lightning, I’ll gladly take a chance with Rivian. The one who has really surprised me in terms of communication and hitting production targets over this past year has been GM. Mary seems to be running a tight ship…. Can’t say I’m a huge fan of their products, but the renewed EV effort is impressive and I look forward to the Silverado EV reveal on Wednesday.

Yea I'm going to see on Wednesday if the Silverado will grab my attention. I am hoping it does and that it's not just some basic truck

 

[Chadx]

How many really "need" 400 miles of range? 300 miles is a long way. ...
Likewise, more range would be better for towing, but again, if you're someone that tows over 500 miles on a very regular basis, again, EV's are still not the most practical for that application.

It doesn't matter how many other people "really need it" if you are the one that does. Ha. I think there are many of us chomping at the bit for a BEV pickup but range and availability of charging stations are the only limiting factor for our typical weekend use. Even here in Montana, a work day range of 50 - 80 miles a day is plenty for most, but for most weekend recreation, the 400 mile unloaded range is borderline enough. Nearly every weekend, we tow what I consider very light trailer loads for a pickup: 3,000lb fishing boat that we pull 70 miles one way to our closest reservoir and often tow to fishing spots 150 miles one way. Our 16' lightweight aluminum enclosed trailer is about 3,000lbs loaded up with ICE and/or EV dirtbikes, ATVs, snowmobiles, etc. When not towing, and simply camping, hiking, snowshoing/XC skiing, mountain biking, there are no charging stations on the way to or from these remote trailheads (I've checked our most common routes). Another use case is long day trips/drives that loop up one highway, into the mountains on forest service roads, then back a completely different way. Even small town gas stations have us nervous for ICE range. Current infrastructure for fast chargers is almost non-existent on all the routes we use; even along the interstates. I research charging station locations often when I daydream about using a BEV to drive to places we recreate because I want one so bad. There are no fast chargers along any of our routes. There are some occasional destination chargers along our routes but those are for use if you are staying at the locations and the slow charge rate would take overnight so not an option for charging as one passed through.

Now add in the cold factor in the winter. 5 degree F to -20 degree F. winter temps are typical when we tow to the snowmobile trail head (or not tow for snowshoeing and backcountry XC skiing) and range is even more of an issue. Our frequented mountain trailheads are 50 - 200 miles one way and are unlikely to have any charging stations installed along the way for the next 10 years or so. I hope I'm wrong! I figure with a 400 mile pack, towing in the cold, we might be able to make the round trip to trailheads up to 70 miles one way safely and up to 90 miles away with some pucker factor (will need to test to find trailer and cold ambient temperature range reduction). Only thing that might help on range is most of these trips are not 70mph interstate trips but 45 - 55mph backroad driving.

For us, the 400mile unloaded range version is even borderline and the 300 mile large pack can't even be considered. We plan to compromise and replace my wife's ICE crossover with a Rivian, but the only reason even the 400 mile will work is I'll keep my ICE pickup to use when we need more range than the 400 mile unloaded (and so 100 - 200 mile towing range) Rivian will give us (which will be fairly often), but it will be nice to see how often we'll be able to tow with the Rivian for local day trips, which we can't with her current crossover.

For our purposes, and I know I'm in the minority here, but I'd much rather see a range extender ICE that can be added to the Rivian "serial hybrid" style. Then, a smaller battery could work. The range extender could be set to kick on only once battery is down to 15% remaining and have just enough energy generation for reduced performance driving. Or, when one knows you'll well exceed the range of the pack, like when towing or in the cold, it could be set to "long trip/tow mode" where the generator would kick on as soon as battery got down to 90% and then it would run the entire time. Though it would slowly fall behind, it could greatly extend the range. With that setup, I could realistically replace my ICE pickup entirely.

Alternative would be if Rivian made a connector so people could run an aftermarket 240v generator in the bed of the truck while driving down the road for those certain occasions as a range extender. Before the comments about that defeating the purpose of a BEV, realize that such an option would be for occasional use and the vast majority of miles would still be from grid electric. And having the ability to utilize a generator as a range extender would mean that way more potential buyers could replace an ICE pickup. Even when using the generator occasionally, it would still net less gasoline use and pollution than the fully ICE pickup.

In summary, with current BEV range and infrastructure, we can only get a Rivian since it will replace an ICE crossover and be a second vehicle to our current ICE pickup. The 300 mile pack is unusable for nearly every weekend trip we do so we'll wait for the 400+ mile range Rivian. That extra 100 miles is a huge difference for our use and is the difference between being able to own one or not.

 

[Chadx]

The 314 mile range gets cut to about 100 miles when towing per those that have tested this. I can't see the value in this vehicle with a 100 mile range when towing is EXPECTED.

One has to quantify "towing". In your estimate, I assume you are referring to R1T towing at the max allowable tow rating of 11,000lbs. (For those interested, R1S is 7,700lbs max). I would argue anyone regularly towing at any pickup's max tow rating is using the wrong pickup and this is no different. It's nice to know the Rivian can do it, for those occasional across-town mini excavator rentals, etc., but anyone that regularly plans to tow more than 50% max tow rating in an EV is probably setting themselves up to be disappointed much the same as regularly towing over about 2/3 max tow rating on an ICE pickup. At that point, you are getting into load leveling hitches, tongue weight is taking away a large portion of your max payload, and the pickup is simply less confidence inspiring.

As mentioned one post ago, we plan to regularly tow various 3,000lb loaded-weight trailers with our R1T; regularly meaning every weekend. I am expecting about a 50% drop in range depending on my towing speed (which greatly influences towing range just like in my ICE pickup). Rivian and others have mentioned a 50% drop in range when towing, but no one seems to define at what tow weight. Like you, I expect towing at max payload, at a reasonable highway speed, to cut range a lot more than 50% and likely down to 1/3 like you estimate. Hoping my 50% range reduction estimate for my 3,000 lb trailers (which is only 27% of max tow weight rating) is pessimistic and our real world range is more than 50%, but will only know once we start experimenting (which is years away since there is no way the large pack will work for us so have to wait for max pack).

 

[R1Tr8000]

One has to quantify "towing". In your estimate, I assume you are referring to R1T towing at the max allowable tow rating of 11,000. (For those interested, R1S is 7,700 max). I would argue anyone regularly towing at any pickups max tow rating is using the wrong pickup and this is no different. It's nice to know the Rivian can do it, for those occasional across-town mini excavator rentals, etc., but anyone that regularly plans to tow more than 50% max tow rating in an EV is probably setting themselves up to be disappointed much the same as regularly towing over about 2/3 max towing rating on and ICE pickup. At that point, you are getting into load leveling hitches, tongue weight is taking away a large portion of your max payload, and the pickup is simply less confidence inspiring.

We plan to regularly tow various 3,000lb loaded-weight trailers with our R1T regularly meaning eery weekend. I am expecting about a 50% drop in range depending on my towing speed (which greatly influences towing just like in my ICE pickup). Rivian and others have mentioned the 50% drop in range when towing, but no one seems to define at what two weight. Like you, I expect towing at max payload at any reasonable highway speed to cut range a lot more than 50% and likely down to 1/3 like you estimate. Hoping my 50% range reduction for my 3,000 lb trailers (which is only 27% of max tow weight rating) is pessimistic and our real world range is less impacted, but will only know once we start experimenting (which is years away since there is no way the large pack will work for us so have to wait for max pack).

AWESOME CHADX!!
You just nailed it hard and direct. How are we suppose to ‘adventure about’..as all their adverts over the last several years suggest..when there isn’t enough juice to get there, adventure some, and get back home from the middle-of-nowhere??
I too have suggested an optional, post-sales Rivian-branded 240v device to allow us to fuel up, a least a bit, in the middle of nowhere! They never ever have responded to that, I’ve suggested it like 2 or 3 times; here’s this:

 

[RivianXpress]

AWESOME CHADX!!
You just nailed it hard and direct. How are we suppose to ‘adventure about’..as all their adverts over the last several years suggest..when there isn’t enough juice to get there, adventure some, and get back home from the middle-of-nowhere??
I too have suggested an optional, post-sales Rivian-branded 240v device to allow us to fuel up, a least a bit, in the middle of nowhere! They never ever have responded to that, I’ve suggested it like 2 or 3 times; here’s this:

Got a link to the Unicorn LFP power source / generator ??

 

[Chadx]

Will also mention another range impact that anyone that drives trails will encounter. Rivian's optional all terrain tires are a unique version of the Pirelli Scorpion 275/60R20. These are Load range C tires (commonly referred to as passenger car tires. Load range C tires are OEM equipment on 1/2 ton pickups so nothing unique to Rivian). But they are NOT load range E tires which are commonly called light truck (LT) tires and have a leading "LT" in the size.

I'll replace the Rivian light duty tires with LT tires that are 10-ply/Load rating E tires. Anyone that drives forest service roads typically changes OEM tires to LT tires to avoid punctures (similar to the sidewall tear Rivian experienced in Colorado on the journalist mountain drive). Pirelli makes the exact same tire in an LT tire called the LT275/60R20 tire and due to the heavy duty construction, it weighs 58 lbs each rather than 48lbs each like the version they made for Rivian. This will impact mileage. Also, all Pirelli Scorpions have a country of origin of Brazil except for this particular size made specifically for Rivian which has a country of origin of Mexico. Not sure why or if that is good or bad, but just pointing out it's different than all their other sizes of this tire model. Both version are Severe Snow Rated.

specs:
275/60R20, max load: 2,760. weight: 48lbs, max air pressure: 50. Load range: C. Speed rating H (130mph)
LT275/60R20, max load: 3,750. weight: 57lbs, max air pressure: 81. Load range: E. Speed rating S (112mph)

That being said, anyone that drives forest service roads have their favorite LT tire. Mine are Cooper Discoverer AT3 XLT. Some prefer BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO2, Goodyear Wrangler DuraTrac or Nitto Grappler or Toyo Open Country. Just realize that when changing to a load range E tire to get more plies and puncture resistance, they are typically at least 10 pounds heavier per tire in the same size plus the tread has more rolling resistance so overall vehicle range will decrease above and beyond Rivian's estimated decrease between the street tires and the Rivian all terrain offering.

I must also vent and say that a 20" wheel has no place on a overlanding, trail driving pickup; at least not with this short of tire. The sidewall on this size wheel/tire combination is too short at 6.5". The overall height is ok at 33" but an 18" tire that is the same height is a 275/70R18 and it has a more reasonable sidewall height of 7.6". You air down a tire of this height on a 20" wheel and you are asking to dent a rim or pinch/cut the sidewall. I've not yet been able to get an answer if an 18" wheel will fit over the disc brakes. Hope so! Or if sticking with 20" wheel, hoping to fit a slightly taller profile tire like a 275/65R20 which has a 7" sidewall and is 34.1" overall diameter.

 

[E_Monkey]

300 mile range after degradation over time, cold and load isn’t that much. I have no choice but to wait. That said also have my cyber truck reservation and will be watching for better options if they come up. Was super excited about the R1T but this is a buzzkill. I get the choice to benefit the most people, but for folks spending the most on this truck seems like a gut punch. Did folks just pick the smaller battery for the tax credit?

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