Are Max packs delivering?

[crashmtb]

I doubt it. They wouldn't be pushing max packs out that far unless they still hadn't worked out how to even make them fit.
If it was just a matter of adding a few battery modules, it wouldn't make sense to separate them out like that.

It was probably a theoretical idea that they can't really deliver on, and hope that the delay will make most of the max pack holders downgrade so that they can get out of ever implementing it without pissing off their customers.

Either that, or the max pack extension was supposed to be some kind of thing that sat in the bed of the truck, which is why it is only available in the truck format and not the SUV. Even though they share the same skateboard.

Huh?

The max pack is just a couple more modules. The pack is just longer, and takes up the rest of the space in the frame. There are pictures.

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[Gabe1aron]

I got the email as well today. Not very inspririnf. I put a reservation down on a large pack and a max pack only a week ago and the email says that both my configurations will be delivering mid 2023. Since I’m going to have to wait that long no matter what, I think I’m going to stick with the max pack.
Coming from a Tesla model Y, really do use most of the range in my vehicle as I do frequent long trips. I expect the range estimates to be worse for the R1 T because of large AT tires and all of the poor aerodynamics issues associated with pick up trucks. So, this only reinforces my inclination to stick with the long range pack.
I am a little bit apprehensive because I wonder how the extra wieght of the Max pack will impact things like tire and suspension wear and handling, since there is probably going to be an extra thousand pounds to carry around, more or less.
However, I am cautiously optimistic that they have been testing max packs and hopefully will iron out any bugs that come with the added weight.
Thoughts?

 

[crashmtb]

I got the email as well today. Not very inspririnf. I put a reservation down on a large pack and a max pack only a week ago and the email says that both my configurations will be delivering mid 2023. Since I’m going to have to wait that long no matter what, I think I’m going to stick with the max pack.
Coming from a Tesla model Y, really do use most of the range in my vehicle as I do frequent long trips. I expect the range estimates to be worse for the R1 T because of large AT tires and all of the poor aerodynamics issues associated with pick up trucks. So, this only reinforces my inclination to stick with the long range pack.
I am a little bit apprehensive because I wonder how the extra wieght of the Max pack will impact things like tire and suspension wear and handling, since there is probably going to be an extra thousand pounds to carry around, more or less.
However, I am cautiously optimistic that they have been testing max packs and hopefully will iron out any bugs that come with the added weight.
Thoughts?

It’s apparently only a few hundred pounds weight difference. The thing weighs 7000lbs To begin with so it won’t make much difference

 

[SeaGeo]

I doubt it. They wouldn't be pushing max packs out that far unless they still hadn't worked out how to even make them fit.
If it was just a matter of adding a few battery modules, it wouldn't make sense to separate them out like that.

It was probably a theoretical idea that they can't really deliver on, and hope that the delay will make most of the max pack holders downgrade so that they can get out of ever implementing it without pissing off their customers.

Either that, or the max pack extension was supposed to be some kind of thing that sat in the bed of the truck, which is why it is only available in the truck format and not the SUV. Even though they share the same skateboard.

Sure it does. They can make roughly 10 large pack trucks for ever 7 max pack trucks.

 

[kylealden]

I doubt it. They wouldn't be pushing max packs out that far unless they still hadn't worked out how to even make them fit.

This is wildly unnecessarily conspiratorial.

Making x SKUs is dramatically simpler than making x*2 SKUs. The Max pack not only needs 30% more modules than the Large (meaning you can deliver more trucks if the mix is all Large), but also a separate assembly procedure (possibly a dedicated line). It doesn’t make sense to load that complexity into the first year of scale production when goal #1 is to win customers and grow the production ramp.

The notion that it hasn’t been designed is frankly hilarious. There may be final elements subject to tweaks but the fundamentals of these trucks have been mostly locked for half a decade. We’re seeing changes to trim and cost optimizations, but not radical redesigns.

 

[trmckin1]

I debated making the same change, but I'm assuming the calculations have already been performed so I fear I'll be seeing a late date, anyway.

I'm curious if/how they'll discuss potential changes and what specific impact that will have on delivery timing.

Well, I just bailed. Got an email after updating my config that it’s end of 2023. Feels like they kicked me to the back of the line with the updated configuration so proceed with caution before changing. Considering how long I had the max pack order in, that window isn’t going to cut it. Disappointed as I was really excited about this vehicle. Maybe one day in the future or an R1S for the wife when it’s time. Hope you guys that have been waiting for 3ish+ years have better luck than I did.

 

[Interferon]

This is wildly unnecessarily conspiratorial.

Making x SKUs is dramatically simpler than making x*2 SKUs. The Max pack not only needs 30% more modules than the Large (meaning you can deliver more trucks if the mix is all Large), but also a separate assembly procedure (possibly a dedicated line). It doesn’t make sense to load that complexity into the first year of scale production when goal #1 is to win customers and grow the production ramp.

The notion that it hasn’t been designed is frankly hilarious. There may be final elements subject to tweaks but the fundamentals of these trucks have been mostly locked for half a decade. We’re seeing changes to trim and cost optimizations, but not radical redesigns.

Do you know why the max pack isn't an option on the SUV, even though it uses identical skateboards?

How many of the prototype and pre-production vehicles had the max pack option installed? For something that increases the battery weight by 30%, it could radically change the driving dynamics and suspension wear and handling. So you would definitely want to have sizable fraction of your test vehicles have that option to make sure there were no problems.
If it was already designed and just a snap-in addition, anyway.

 

[SANZC02]

Do you know why the max pack isn't an option on the SUV, even though it uses identical skateboards?

How many of the prototype and pre-production vehicles had the max pack option installed? For something that increases the battery weight by 30%, it could radically change the driving dynamics and suspension wear and handling. So you would definitely want to have sizable fraction of your test vehicles have that option to make sure there were no problems.
If it was already designed and just a snap-in addition, anyway.

Skateboards are similar not identical, the wheelbase is shorter on the R1S which is why they need to redesign what the R1S max pack will be.

 

[Interferon]

No, they are battery supply constrained and trying to deliver the most vehicles possible with the supply they have.

Every production startup from Tesla and everyone else starts with the most expensive highest-margin option to maximize the per-vehicle profit. Even Rivian is following this strategy by only offering the launch edition with adventure trim, and not explorer.
What would be the reasoning for not following this same strategy with a high-margin battery pack add-on? Which option gives you more per-hour margin: Two vehicles with a $5,000 margin each, or one vehicle with a $10,000 margin?

 

[SANZC02]

Every production startup from Tesla and everyone else starts with the most expensive highest-margin option to maximize the per-vehicle profit. Even Rivian is following this strategy by only offering the launch edition with adventure trim, and not explorer.
What would be the reasoning for not following this same strategy with a high-margin battery pack add-on? Which option gives you more per-hour margin: Two vehicles with a $5,000 margin each, or one vehicle with a $10,000 margin?

Looking at revenue you can build 28 large pack vehicles with the same batteries as 21 max packs. Assuming 80k for the large pack vehicle and 90k for the max pack, you deliver 7 more units and gross 350k more revenue.

If there is any pressure on the battery availability it makes a lot of sense to push out the max pack, they generate a billion more in revenue for every 84 large pack vehicles they deliver.

21 1.89 billion
28 2.24 billion

 

[Interferon]

Looking at revenue you can build 28 large pack vehicles with the same batteries as 21 max packs. Assuming 80k for the large pack vehicle and 90k for the max pack, you deliver 7 more units and gross 350k more revenue.

If there is any pressure on the battery availability it makes a lot of sense to push out the max pack, they generate a billion more in revenue for every 84 large pack vehicles they deliver.

21 1.89 billion
28 2.24 billion

That's why I was talking about profit, not revenue.
Which one gives you more profit?

 

[SANZC02]

That's why I was talking about profit, not revenue.
Which one gives you more profit?

Considering that the sale of the vehicle is only part of their planned revenue stream it goes to reason they would want more vehicles in the market to tap into those other buckets.

The real question that needs to be answered though is are they supply constrained on the batteries, I would think they are as originally they had planned to offer the larger batteries for the initial releases.

That being said looks like the average cost of an EV battery is around $157 a kWh in 2021 so the extra 45 kWh is around 7k, 21 max packs is around 63k profit so the question would be do they make more than 9k on the 80k large pack vehicle for the extra 7 they can produce?

At this stage of the game though, they are more interested in delivering a quality vehicle in volume and generating revenue, profits will come in time.

 

[the long way downunder]

(1) Before changing your pre-order, get in touch with Rivian or if you have a guide assigned to your purchase, work with them.
(2) I think a percentage of R1 customers will be "day one" orders for the R2 or whatever is announced next and get their vehicle before people waiting into '23 for orders today.
(3) It's appropriate that Rivian let customers, investors and the market know that the max-pack is changing. It's impossible to know if this is good or bad news till the facts are published (for example, if this delay means Rivian is sourcing batteries from a new OEM or using a new chemistry, that's good news.)
(4) EVs are complex, not just "how big is the battery physically?" … the total system of a 180kWh battery replacing a 135kWh battery includes charging, thermal regulation, motor performance, vehicle weight … engineering challenges and complexity beyond "does it fit?" I think it would be silly to look at the team who built the R1T and say "yeah, they're not bright enough to fit a larger battery." If anything, I'd say when Munro tears down the R1T with 135kWh, they will identify "this is the void space for more cells/blades and here's where the larger cooling and onboard charging fits."

 

[MoreTrout]

Well, I just bailed. Got an email after updating my config that it’s end of 2023. Feels like they kicked me to the back of the line with the updated configuration so proceed with caution before changing. Considering how long I had the max pack order in, that window isn’t going to cut it. Disappointed as I was really excited about this vehicle. Maybe one day in the future or an R1S for the wife when it’s time. Hope you guys that have been waiting for 3ish+ years have better luck than I did.

Man that stinks. But it's what I have been trying to say in the other thread with all of those 2021 order holders saying they are downgrading so they don't have to wait until 2023. I'm not touching my max pack Mar 2020 order until I see some kind of confirmation from Rivian that doing so will result in a 2022 delivery. And I don't think they will say anything about it until they reach out in Jan to all the 2018-19 max pack orders about downgrading.

Sorry I probably missed where you said it somewhere, but what was your original order date and delivery window? If you haven't already canceled the order completely, would you consider changing it back to a max pack just to see if it reverts to your original delivery window?

 

[trmckin1]

Man that stinks. But it's what I have been trying to say in the other thread with all of those 2021 order holders saying they are downgrading so they don't have to wait until 2023. I'm not touching my max pack Mar 2020 order until I see some kind of confirmation from Rivian that doing so will result in a 2022 delivery. And I don't think they will say anything about it until they reach out in Jan to all the 2018-19 max pack orders about downgrading.

Sorry I probably missed where you said it somewhere, but what was your original order date and delivery window? If you haven't already canceled the order completely, would you consider changing it back to a max pack just to see if it reverts to your original delivery window?

i’ll have to go look exactly but it was within a few weeks of the order banks opening up. I’m just going to move ahead with the lightning or another ICE f150. Have a day one lightning reservation but will say that their communication has been about as inconsistent and sporadic as Rivian. I probably should have called/emailed rivian CS yesterday. Just need a truck and my impatience got the best of me.

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