Doug DeMuro Can't Stop Praising R2

[TexasBob]

Yes, public charging still sucks. I agree. Especially destination charging.

One day, in my imaginary future, hotels will offer reserved charging spaces with a 14-50 outlet that we can use while staying there. For a fee, of course. The hotel is a business and needs to get a return on their investment. I am willing to pay for that.

We are doing a trip out to Big Bend and the resort has an adjacent RV park. We’re renting a dedicated 14-50 for $25 a day. Very nice and and ideal solution. That sort of this is obviously not always available but nice when it is!

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[blipit]

I don't think IX3 is priced for volume. It is probably ok to convert BMW and possibly Mercedes owners looking for an EV.

Lower trim iX3 are coming Q1 2027. The iX3 has been a hit in Europe. Demand is exceeding production with just one trim available. They are adding a second shift to Debrecen plant in Hungary. That factory can build up to 150,000 units per year. The plant in Mexico starts iX3 production in August 2027.

Apparently one in three iX3 are sold to customers new to the brand. US launch is late Summer, lets see how it does in US finicky EV market.

 

[ENVErider]

I'd bet the number of people who take R1 offroad now is less than 5% and that's being generous. New R1 buyers are Tesla defectors or want something different, not offroaders like Gen1 R1T buyers. They've run out of people willing to plunk down $100k for a truck and need R2 going forward. ix3 will destroy the R2 with a range of 400 miles and it'll be plenty fast for the avg person. Exterior on the R2 looks better than BMW but the interior looks plasticky cheap compared.

@sparked made a similar comment. I think your summary of Rivian buyer evolution and the <5% off-roaders is probably pretty close to reality, but it may not predict buying decisions driven by passion and feelings. <5% is probably true for most ICE SUVs to the point it's a running joke that SUV buyers don't actually do "Sport" or "Utility" things with their vehicle, and they will often illogically choose bigger AT tires just because "they look cool".
I don't think R2's off-road capabilities are a make/break feature for most, and the R2 owners will prioritize the best everyday experience; I do think it will be perceived as an added value/feature. Maybe they would only pay $1000 more (on average) for this, maybe another $5-7K, but I think it helps the vehicle just like autonomy helps Tesla or range/C-rate for iX3. At the time of purchase, when passion and feelings are strongest, I do think watching those videos of R2s doing cool things off-road and camping will create at least the romanticized dream of those buyers doing something ruggedly cool in their future (someday).

 

[hammick]

He mentioned something I’ve been thinking: R1S sales will fall when R2 comes out. And if Tesla’s trajectory is any indication, R1S may eventually go the way of Model X in a few years - meaning discontinued. There’s basically two factors that will keep R1S alive: 1) people who want 3 rows/7 seats and 2) Those who want to go more off-road than the R2 can handle.

For the first group, I think the R2 platform is flexible enough to shorten to make an R3, it’s probably flexible enough to stretch to make a 3 row R2. Again, it’d be like what Tesla did in China: make a longer Model Y with 3 rows.

And for the 2nd group, people who want to go even more off-road than the R2 can handle, will probably go to the Scout Traveler… unless Rivian makes the R1S even more rugged in Gen 3 (locking diffs, full size spare tire carrier, etc.), but there’s not a large market for that level of off road capability, so I don’t think they’ll go that way.

Don't dismiss the power of soccer moms demanding their three row SUVs even if they only have one brat.

 

[CrazyOne]

Lower trim iX3 are coming Q1 2027. The iX3 has been a hit in Europe. Demand is exceeding production with just one trim available. They are adding a second shift to Debrecen plant in Hungary. That factory can build up to 150,000 units per year. The plant in Mexico starts iX3 production in August 2027.

Apparently one in three iX3 are sold to customers new to the brand. US launch is late Summer, lets see how it does in US finicky EV market.

Even the entry level version is $55,000. It will cost about $10,000 more than R2. BMW prices also escalate quickly. So, 20-25% more. There will be some cross shopping, but not a lot.

Idk about I3, but I have always found entry level 3 series/X3 very spartan, closer to Honda Accord than Mercedes. The 3 series was also surprisingly noisy. Admittedly, I haven't been in the latest generation ones. They handle well, but EVs are completely different. X5 and higher are much better.

 

[portdirect]

Once R2 hits it's stride and becomes a money maker for the company, I do think it makes sense for the R1 to go more upscale as the Alpha. Yes, volumes are going to be low but margins high. R2, R3/X are going to print money for them to do this IMO.

I can see this for the R1S: but I‘m not convinced of the viability for the T moving further up - and if they do take the R1 further upmarket then suspect the T wouldn’t follow I really hope they keep things positioned around where they are now - perhaps with a rotating selection of ‘pebble beach’ style special editions marked up a bit more.

My biggest take away from the influencer preview last week was that the emphasis on rear leg room in the R2 means they probably have to make some bigger changes than to R1 and simply a new tech package - they can’t have the ’big one’ be known as the ‘cramped one’ after a refresh.

 

[Bullwinkle]

In my experience, destination charging is very unreliable. But if they can get it right, it is a huge advantage over ICEV travel. If all my travel refueling is done where I park to eat and sleep, it is amazing.

I definitely would pay for that convenience. As it is now, it is a crap shoot that I frequently lose.

It is getting better

 

[Bullwinkle]

@sparked made a similar comment. I think your summary of Rivian buyer evolution and the <5% off-roaders is probably pretty close to reality, but it may not predict buying decisions driven by passion and feelings. <5% is probably true for most ICE SUVs to the point it's a running joke that SUV buyers don't actually do "Sport" or "Utility" things with their vehicle, and they will often illogically choose bigger AT tires just because "they look cool".
I don't think R2's off-road capabilities are a make/break feature for most, and the R2 owners will prioritize the best everyday experience; I do think it will be perceived as an added value/feature. Maybe they would only pay $1000 more (on average) for this, maybe another $5-7K, but I think it helps the vehicle just like autonomy helps Tesla or range/C-rate for iX3. At the time of purchase, when passion and feelings are strongest, I do think watching those videos of R2s doing cool things off-road and camping will create at least the romanticized dream of those buyers doing something ruggedly cool in their future (someday).

But what if equivalent hp from BMW is $10k+ more? Are zonal architecture and cast frames really equivalent? Do people like R2’s off-road ability or just the image it projects—does it matter?

Maybe both cars are successful. It seems likely that the limiting factor on R2 uptake will be production. My guess is that launch edition of both will be $60k ish, but R2 will have a 100hp+ advantage and a cool factor advantage.

 

[DuoRivians]

But what if equivalent hp from BMW is $10k+ more? Are zonal architecture and cast frames really equivalent? Do people like R2’s off-road ability or just the image it projects—does it matter?

Maybe both cars are successful. It seems likely that the limiting factor on R2 uptake will be production. My guess is that launch edition of both will be $60k ish, but R2 will have a 100hp+ advantage and a cool factor advantage.

I don’t consider the R2 to be cooler than the iX3. The latter can charge at 400kw and get 400 miles of range, which is much more solid engineering. On a lease priced comparison, I’m betting both of these vehicles are going to be nearly the same

 

[Bullwinkle]

I am genuinely interested in why you think it is more relaxing.



This is NOT relaxing, IMO.



Your wife is correct.

Yes, traveling in a ICEV is easier. Which means it is more relaxing.

My wife thinks I am nuts also. She did some traveling with me in my Mach-e and we had some really poor public charging experiences. After that she banned the Mach-e as a travel vehicle. I might be able to get her to consider traveling in my R1, but not because it is more relaxing. She would agree just to humor me. Because she thinks I am nuts. And she is correct.

Cogent, yet I really don't agree.

 

[Bullwinkle]

I don’t consider the R2 to be cooler than the iX3. The latter can charge at 400kw and get 400 miles of range, which is much more solid engineering. On a lease priced comparison, I’m betting both of these vehicles are going to be nearly the same

R2 is cooler. Time will tell, but Rivian's zonal architecture, cast frame, superior on-road performance, and off-road capabilities get my vote and pocketbook. Are you saying BMW will stop Rivian from selling enough R2s?

 

[Bullwinkle]

R2 is cooler. Time will tell, but Rivian's zonal architecture, cast frame, superior on-road performance, and off-road capabilities get my vote and pocketbook. Are you saying BMW will stop Rivian from selling enough R2s?

I do admit the upper GUI under the windshield is dang cool.

 

[blipit]

Even the entry level version is $55,000. It will cost about $10,000 more than R2. BMW prices also escalate quickly. So, 20-25% more. There will be some cross shopping, but not a lot.

BMW has said both the iX3 40 sdrive and xdrive will start under $55k. 40 sdrive being entry level, should be closer to $50k msrp. Plus BMW's always lease well. I bet similar trim levels to R2, the iX3 leases better even if price is higher with options.

 

[DuoRivians]

R2 is cooler. Time will tell, but Rivian's zonal architecture, cast frame, superior on-road performance, and off-road capabilities get my vote and pocketbook. Are you saying BMW will stop Rivian from selling enough R2s?

All I’m saying is that this “coolness” comparison between the two is really arbitrary. Calm down with your Rivian fanboy stuff here

 

[CrazyOne]

BMW has said both the iX3 40 sdrive and xdrive will start under $55k. 40 sdrive being entry level, should be closer to $50k msrp. Plus BMW's always lease well. I bet similar trim levels to R2, the iX3 leases better even if price is higher with options.

You can make same arguments about IX. I liked that car, but didn't/doesn't sell well. I recall $800 leases.

If Rivian cannot beat IX3 by a massive margin, it probably won't exist in its current form.

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