Quad vs Dual - snow performance?

[Mina]

Hey all - I did some searching before posting, but didn't see anything specific on this topic. Also recognize it might be too early to tell given the Dual Motor deliveries haven't been through a winter season yet...

I hold a Quad Motor R1T reservation - I put it on hold earlier this year to wait on news about the Powered Tonneau coming back. Now we have more clarity, I'm thinking about re-activating the order / grabbing an R1T from the store.

Does anyone have any strong feelings either way on whether the quad motor will perform better in snow vs the dual? We live in Lake Tahoe, so that's the main consideration for performance of the car vs off-road capabilities (albeit, plenty of dirt roads around here). Assume both would have snow tires, so it's purely a question of motor performance vs wheels/tires.

Cheers!

I know I'm beating a dead horse in here. But if you look at the history of differentials; there are Torsen Differential, Torque-vectoring Differential, Limited Slip Differential. List goes on and on and on. Why? The differentials are a problem. Rivian with 4 separately controlled motors eliminated all of those problems. Long over due.
Still thinking about Dual motors?
Cybertruck has 3 motors. Hummer EV - 3 motors. Yes, they do have a diff. but there is a reason for the 3 motors, not 2.
Dual motor Rivian is just another Model Y that has no access to Tesla chargers. And true, Model Y performs well on snow and Ice in Tahoe.
If you want a decent dual motor vehicle, LUCID just dropped the prices and goes 513 miles.

Sponsored

 

[SSteveEV]

Quad motor does need some software upgrading still, but it is clearly the future.
Differentials are going to be thing of the past. People talk about differentials, but most of them are unable to lock their diffs when they get stuck in the snow or mud. 4WD, one wheel keeps spinning, rest of the wheels standing still. Same old, every winter. Only few trucks have the true diff. locks. (Powerwagon, H2, H1 etc.)
Go out to Alder Creek Road on Icy conditions toward Tahoe Donner and see: quad motor has the control to straighten the truck up, before you start skidding. Software reacts faster than human being + each wheel controlled by it's own motor.
Can't perform like that with dual.

Haven't tested Alder Creek in my QM yet but its great fun in my e63 wagon with snow tires. Wave to my sister next time you go by

 

[R.I.P.]

I know I'm beating a dead horse in here. But if you look at the history of differentials; there are Torsen Differential, Torque-vectoring Differential, Limited Slip Differential. List goes on and on and on. Why? The differentials are a problem. Rivian with 4 separately controlled motors eliminated all of those problems. Long over due.
Still thinking about Dual motors?
Cybertruck has 3 motors. Hummer EV - 3 motors. Yes, they do have a diff. but there is a reason for the 3 motors, not 2.
Dual motor Rivian is just another Model Y that has no access to Tesla chargers. And true, Model Y performs well on snow and Ice in Tahoe.
If you want a decent dual motor vehicle, LUCID just dropped the prices and goes 513 miles.

Nice theory, but it did not pan out for me in the real world.

I off-road most days. I spent 7 hrs on the trails yesterday. I bought the QM because I was sold on the theory like you are.

It was fine for lite off-roading, but in challenging terrain it becomes an embarrassing mess of herky-jerky, unable to figure out where to put the power down disaster. The Hummer EV has the same issue in the rear; I have dozens of hours off road in it as well.

CT Beast owners are complaining of similar problems. Correctable with better software? Maybe, but I sold my QM & replaced it with an R1 with good old differentials in it.

OMG; what a difference! The traditional traction control Rivian has dialed into the Enduro's is spot on, & this version of the R1 just walks up things that that my QM thrashed & stumbled trying to climb.

Can QM/ Tri-motor be fixed with software? I guess we will see, but my (considerable) experience with it has me dubious.

 

[R1Tom]

Nice theory, but it did not pan out for me in the real world.

I off-road most days. I spent 7 hrs on the trails yesterday. I bought the QM because I was sold on the theory like you are.

It was fine for lite off-roading, but in challenging terrain it becomes an embarrassing mess of herky-jerky, unable to figure out where to put the power down disaster. The Hummer EV has the same issue in the rear; I have dozens of hours off road in it as well.

CT Beast owners are complaining of similar problems. Correctable with better software? Maybe, but I sold my QM & replaced it with an R1 with good old differentials in it.

OMG; what a difference! The traditional traction control Rivian has dialed into the Enduro's is spot on, & this version of the R1 just walks up things that that my QM thrashed & stumbled trying to climb.

Can QM/ Tri-motor be fixed with software? I guess we will see, but my (considerable) experience with it has me dubious.

OP question is snow related..not mountain goat stuff. I too spend time doing off road stuff, but not in Rivian. In lifted and large tire (for airdown) Jeep JL Rubicon with lockers at front, rear, and center as well as sway disconnect. And it can't be beat in that environment.

I also agree with you that open diffs of a dual motor with brake lock diff (I assume Rivian has that implemented) is probably better than the quad for crawing or severe off camber stuff.

But...OP is talking snow.

And for snow, the computer does an excellent job moving the power were traction is available without the drama of needing traction control strategy and brake engagement to move power to the side with traction.

Maybe if the DM had a electronically controlled diff at front and back then it could excel, but since it is open diffs....there is that drawback to needing brake action to properly distribute torque.

 

[R.I.P.]

OP question is snow related..not mountain goat stuff. I too spend time doing off road stuff, but not in Rivian. In lifted and large tire (for airdown) Jeep JL Rubicon with lockers at front, rear, and center as well as sway disconnect. And it can't be beat in that environment.

I also agree with you that open diffs of a dual motor with brake lock diff (I assume Rivian has that implemented) is probably better than the quad for crawing or severe off camber stuff.

But...OP is talking snow.

And for snow, the computer does an excellent job moving the power were traction is available without the drama of needing traction control strategy and brake engagement to move power to the side with traction.

Maybe if the DM had a electronically controlled diff at front and back then it could excel, but since it is open diffs....there is that drawback to needing brake action to properly distribute torque.

My DM is much, much, much better in snow and ice than my QM was; because the diff gives it lateral stability. I have documented this at length in many tests and posts.

 

[R1Tom]

My DM is much, much, much better in snow and ice than my QM was; because the diff gives it lateral stability. I have documented this at length in many tests and posts.

That is awesome then!

I have driven thru a complete winter with standard 20's on my QM and it performed amazingly well now with Snow Mode. Prior it was a bit sketchy.

I would even call it close to my TL SH-AWD manual with snows on it. That car was like a snow mobile in snow as it could vary torque as needed too and did a amazingly good job at it. I assume the Rivian would perform amazing in snow with snows on it, but it did so good with the stock all terrains I decided not to bother.

So if the DM is much^3 better...it must be amazingly better than everything else on road....which is awesome!

 

[Mina]

OP question is snow related..not mountain goat stuff. I too spend time doing off road stuff, but not in Rivian. In lifted and large tire (for airdown) Jeep JL Rubicon with lockers at front, rear, and center as well as sway disconnect. And it can't be beat in that environment.

I also agree with you that open diffs of a dual motor with brake lock diff (I assume Rivian has that implemented) is probably better than the quad for crawing or severe off camber stuff.

But...OP is talking snow.

And for snow, the computer does an excellent job moving the power were traction is available without the drama of needing traction control strategy and brake engagement to move power to the side with traction.

Maybe if the DM had a electronically controlled diff at front and back then it could excel, but since it is open diffs....there is that drawback to needing brake action to properly distribute torque.

Nice theory, but it did not pan out for me in the real world.

I off-road most days. I spent 7 hrs on the trails yesterday. I bought the QM because I was sold on the theory like you are.

It was fine for lite off-roading, but in challenging terrain it becomes an embarrassing mess of herky-jerky, unable to figure out where to put the power down disaster. The Hummer EV has the same issue in the rear; I have dozens of hours off road in it as well.

CT Beast owners are complaining of similar problems. Correctable with better software? Maybe, but I sold my QM & replaced it with an R1 with good old differentials in it.

OMG; what a difference! The traditional traction control Rivian has dialed into the Enduro's is spot on, & this version of the R1 just walks up things that that my QM thrashed & stumbled trying to climb.

Can QM/ Tri-motor be fixed with software? I guess we will see, but my (considerable) experience with it has me dubious.

You still can't do a tank turns with your DM, not matter what's the upgrades.
Hummer EV and CT both do have a differentials, even locking ones.
And there is a reason they developed their platforms on 3 motors. Really cheap Hummer EV is based on 2 motors, just like your DM Rivian.....but .....performs just like the DM Riv, minus the crab walk.

 

[R.I.P.]

You still can't do a tank turns with your DM, not matter what's the upgrades.
Hummer EV and CT both do have a differentials, even locking ones.
And there is a reason they developed their platforms on 3 motors. Really cheap Hummer EV is based on 2 motors, just like your DM Rivian.....but .....performs just like the DM Riv, minus the crab walk.

Hum. Come to think of it, I couldn't do a tank turn in my QM either.

Thank you for yet another example of something that looks good on paper, but turns out to be not such a great idea in practice.
?

If you are looking to sing QM praises, definitely talk about things they are good at;

-Getting power down on high-traction surfaces (drag racing).
-Sand.
-Rally mode.

All things that the Quad is great at.
??

 

[milliemc]

The lack of a differential severely handicaps the quad motor version in snow, ice and very slippery conditions. The problem is masked somewhat with the snow mode, and obviously better tires help, but it's still only masking the problem the vehicle creates for itself with lateral traction.

The dual motor puts the differential back in, and has brought back very "normal" feeling lateral stability in the vehicle. We did extensive testing and documentation of the quad's issues on ice and snow in the "quad motor vs locking differential" thread.

You want the best handling possible in ice of snow? The dual motor with a differential will do that for you.

Thank, that helped. We've been invited to configure and I have been leaning toward the dual motor. We do have snow here in the winter anti can be challenging (Santa Fe, NM) .

Sponsored