R2 range per charge - I hope it is dazzling - if not ...

[Sonoma]

Can the R2 launch event next week reverse all the negative momentum this week? Not likely unless they pull a rabbit out the hat. A stunning increase in range per charge just might be that rabbit. A mid-priced R2 with 400 miles per charge would be dazzling, otherwise what's there to get excited about?

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[vandy1981]

You've missed the mark on this one. The R2 will not have a 400 mile range, nor does it need it to be noteworthy.

Charger anxiety is more relevant than range anxiety. I predict that the headline will be that the R2 is the first non-Tesla vehicle to be revealed with a native NACS port. 800V, 250+ kW charging will be the icing on the cake.

 

[brancky3]

You've missed the mark on this one. The R2 will not have a 400 mile range, nor does it need it to be noteworthy.

Charger anxiety is more relevant than range anxiety. I predict that the headline will be that the R2 is the first non-Tesla vehicle to be revealed with a native NACS port. 800V, 250+ kW charging will be the icing on the cake.

Completely agree. As long as the range (REAL range) is around 300 it won’t matter. That’s 4 hours of straight driving at 70mph, which is almost impossible unless you are dehydrated. We just need fast and reliable charging.

 

[HaveBlue]

If it charges in 20 min 20-80% it will be fine like a Tesla. The r1 with the big battery and 400v will always be a 40 min affair to go eat lunch.

 

[strykerwsu]

1K miles for trimotor and it will tow 20k. Exoskeleton and will beat a Porsche towing a Porsche. Too soon?

 

[Sonoma]

I concede that the expansion of highway charging stations will quickly solve the **Range Anxiety** issue. However, for those who don't/won't have home charging, the issue of **Charger Anxiety** will persist because I suspect that LOCAL charging stations will be fewer and more dispered than gas stations. People would/will simply have to drive further to get "fueled" and that's a deterrent to purchasing. hope I'm wrong.

 

[Uncle Dude]

I’m still heading down the rabbit hole on all this. This will be our first EV, and we’re going to do some big road trips in it. I’m thinking charging speed, is almost the most important variable. Is there any real chance at 800v with the given price target? I was just watching a Taycan video (I know different category of use and price) and the charge from 10% in 15 minutes was incredible.

 

[sub]

I’m still heading down the rabbit hole on all this. This will be our first EV, and we’re going to do some big road trips in it. I’m thinking charging speed, is almost the most important variable. Is there any real chance at 800v with the given price target? I was just watching a Taycan video (I know different category of use and price) and the charge from 10% in 15 minutes was incredible.

Given the current state of fast charging locations, an 800v vehicle is worse for road tripping than a 400v one if everything else were equal.

Advertisers love to talk about the peak rate, but in real life the peak rate is almost irrelevant because it only lasts for a few minutes. You can only charge at that peak rate when the battery is completely empty and just the right temperature. After a few minutes, the battery is no longer empty and the battery will have heated up. You end up spending most of your time well below that advertised peak.

So although in theory an 800v vehicle might be able to have a higher peak charging rate, the peak rate doesn't last long enough to make a significant difference. Because there are all sorts of other variables that impact charging times, it's hard to get a exact number, but you're probably only cutting about 5 minutes off your charging time by increasing the peak speed beyond what 400 volt vehicles can do.

So there isn't a huge benefit. But there is a pretty big downside to 800v vehicles. There are not currently many reliable 800v chargers.

The odds of the 800v charger being broken or occupied is disturbingly high. The 5 minute boost you get from a higher peak is more than offset when you end up having to wait in line for half an hour to plug in or even worse have to hunt down another location because you couldn't charge at all. There's nothing inherently unreliable about a 800 volt charger, but the companies building them all suck.

And most 800v vehicles charge slowly on 400v chargers because they have to boost the 400 volt input to 800 volts and are limited in how much they can boost. So with an 800v vehicle if you stick to the reliable (Tesla) chargers you end up charging slower than a 400V vehicle would.

All that said, charging speed is not nearly the issue you think it is. On pretty much any modern EV it will charge fast enough that by the time you have found a toilet and eaten a granola bar the car will be recharged and ready to go.

You are not allowed to leave a gas car unattended so the experience is different. You fill the tank and then go hunt down a bathroom and some food only after you are done. But in an EV you plug in and then go about your other business while the vehicle charges. Instead of comparing the charging time to the time you spend holding the gas pump, the more relevant comparison is on-ramp to off-ramp, and the difference between EV and gas is smaller than you realize.

There may still be a difference, but the magnitude is most likely less than you are expecting.

Instead of stressing out about charging speed, you should focus more on charger reliability and locations. And when you start looking at the chargers instead of the vehicle, 400 volt comes out on top right now.

Also, if you do want to optimize charging speed, the on road efficiency has a bigger impact than how quickly you can fill the battery. A big inefficient SUV, will spend a lot more time charging than a small efficient sedan even if the SUV has employed every possible trick to improve charging speed. When you can go twice as far on one unit of electricity, it takes half the time to replenish what you used.

 

[DB-EV]

I’m still heading down the rabbit hole on all this. This will be our first EV, and we’re going to do some big road trips in it. I’m thinking charging speed, is almost the most important variable. Is there any real chance at 800v with the given price target? I was just watching a Taycan video (I know different category of use and price) and the charge from 10% in 15 minutes was incredible.

This is understandable but often overblown. I spent a ton of time researching it, but it comes down to if you use plugshare and a map app, you won't have issues. Rivians aren't the fasted charging out there, but it is plenty fast. I have probably done 10-20 3 hour plus trips and 1 2 day trip (4 days round trip) and have had no significant issues, including in ALABAMA which is not a high speed charging mecca. I have maybe had one annoying charge issue and that was when I didn't check the plugshare score of a random EA station I went up to 2 hours from home.

 

[Uncle Dude]

Sub, thanks for the thoughtful reply. That gives me more to think about!

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

Given the current state of fast charging locations, an 800v vehicle is worse for road tripping than a 400v one if everything else were equal.

Advertisers love to talk about the peak rate, but in real life the peak rate is almost irrelevant because it only lasts for a few minutes. You can only charge at that peak rate when the battery is completely empty and just the right temperature. After a few minutes, the battery is no longer empty and the battery will have heated up. You end up spending most of your time well below that advertised peak.

So although in theory an 800v vehicle might be able to have a higher peak charging rate, the peak rate doesn't last long enough to make a significant difference. Because there are all sorts of other variables that impact charging times, it's hard to get a exact number, but you're probably only cutting about 5 minutes off your charging time by increasing the peak speed beyond what 400 volt vehicles can do.

So there isn't a huge benefit. But there is a pretty big downside to 800v vehicles. There are not currently many reliable 800v chargers.

The odds of the 800v charger being broken or occupied is disturbingly high. The 5 minute boost you get from a higher peak is more than offset when you end up having to wait in line for half an hour to plug in or even worse have to hunt down another location because you couldn't charge at all. There's nothing. Inherently unreliable about a 800 volt charger, but the companies building them all suck.

And most 800v vehicles charge slowly on 400v chargers because they have to boost the 400 volt input to 800 volts and are limited in how much they can boost. So with an 800v vehicle if you stick to the reliable (Tesla) chargers you end up charging slower than a 400V vehicle would.

All that said, charging speed is not nearly the issue you think it is. On pretty much any modern EV it will charge fast enough that by the time you have found a toilet and eaten a granola bar the car will be recharged and ready to go.

You are not allowed to leave a gas car unattended so the experience is different. You fill the tank and then go hunt down a bathroom and some food only after you are done. But in an EV you plug in and then go about your other business while the vehicle charges. Instead of comparing the charging time to the time you spend holding the gas pump, the more relevant comparison is on-ramp to off-ramp, and the difference between EV and gas is smaller than you realize.

There may still be a difference, but the magnitude is most likely less than you are expecting.

Instead of stressing out about charging speed, you should focus more on charger reliability and locations. And when you start looking at the chargers instead of the vehicle, 400 volt comes out on top right now.

Also, if you do want to optimize charging speed, the on road efficiency has a bigger impact than how quickly you can fill the battery. A big inefficient SUV, will spend a lot more time charging than a small efficient sedan even if the SUV has employed every possible trick to improve charging speed. When you can go twice as far on one unit of electricity, it takes half the time to replenish what you used.

I must be missing something. Our EV9 charges very fast on a 400V charger. 10-80% in about 30 minutes. Maintained peak charging rate is 120-150kwhr. And on 800V we have seen 10-80% in 23 minutes.

So what is the downside of an 800V architecture? I don’t see a huge benefit to 800 vs 400 at this point, though 800 chargers will become more common. So I wouldn’t stress about the Rivian architecture at all. But I don’t see a downside (even with the 400V x 2 architecture of many “800V” car architectures).

 

[sub]

I must be missing something. Our EV9 charges very fast on a 400V charger. 10-80% in about 30 minutes. Maintained peak charging rate is 120-150kwhr. And on 800V we have seen 10-80% in 23 minutes.

So what is the downside of an 800V architecture? I don’t see a huge benefit to 800 vs 400 at this point, though 800 chargers will become more common. So I wouldn’t stress about the Rivian architecture at all. But I don’t see a downside (even with the 400V x 2 architecture of many “800V” chargers).

The Taycan that the person I was responding to was admiring has a 50kw peak on 400V chargers with the standard charger and the best selling 800V vehicle, the Hyundai IONIQ 5 has a 100kw peak.

While the 120-150 kw peak you are seeing is a bit better than those, it is still well below (approximately half) the 220-250 peak that you could be getting with a 400V vehicle on a 400V charger.

So the downside is that if you are mostly using 400V chargers, it charges slower than it would if it had been designed as a 400V vehicle.

Your vehicle certainly charges fast enough on a 400V charger. But it could have been faster.

 

[Jacopa]

Just a bigger onboard charger would do it. A Model Y charges at 44 mile per hour in the garage at 48amps, it’s charging curve on a supercharger is very good as well.. it holds 200+KWh pretty deep into the charging curve, even when it ramps down it still puts a lot of miles in the tank..

it definitely will not have 400+ range.. in reality it doesn’t need it. Elon has proved that. It’s all about fast, reliable super charging on the road trip..

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

The Taycan that the person I was responding to was admiring has a 50kw peak on 400V chargers with the standard charger and the best selling 800V vehicle, the Hyundai IONIQ 5 has a 100kw peak.

While the 120-150 kw peak you are seeing is a bit better than those, it is still well below (approximately half) the 220-250 peak that you could be getting with a 400V vehicle on a 400V charger.

So the downside is that if you are mostly using 400V chargers, it charges slower than it would if it had been designed as a 400V vehicle.

Your vehicle certainly charges fast enough on a 400V charger. But it could have been faster.

Are we taking about peak or maintained rate? Because maintaining at 220-250 would get you 10-80% on a max pack in 23 minutes. That’s 287 miles out of a max pack. But Rivian states you can only get 150 miles in 20 minutes…. Which gets you back down to the sustained rates I see with 800V.

Maybe I am missing something…

 

[Donald Stanfield]

Given the current state of fast charging locations, an 800v vehicle is worse for road tripping than a 400v one if everything else were equal.

Advertisers love to talk about the peak rate, but in real life the peak rate is almost irrelevant because it only lasts for a few minutes. You can only charge at that peak rate when the battery is completely empty and just the right temperature. After a few minutes, the battery is no longer empty and the battery will have heated up. You end up spending most of your time well below that advertised peak.

So although in theory an 800v vehicle might be able to have a higher peak charging rate, the peak rate doesn't last long enough to make a significant difference. Because there are all sorts of other variables that impact charging times, it's hard to get a exact number, but you're probably only cutting about 5 minutes off your charging time by increasing the peak speed beyond what 400 volt vehicles can do.

So there isn't a huge benefit. But there is a pretty big downside to 800v vehicles. There are not currently many reliable 800v chargers.

The odds of the 800v charger being broken or occupied is disturbingly high. The 5 minute boost you get from a higher peak is more than offset when you end up having to wait in line for half an hour to plug in or even worse have to hunt down another location because you couldn't charge at all. There's nothing inherently unreliable about a 800 volt charger, but the companies building them all suck.

And most 800v vehicles charge slowly on 400v chargers because they have to boost the 400 volt input to 800 volts and are limited in how much they can boost. So with an 800v vehicle if you stick to the reliable (Tesla) chargers you end up charging slower than a 400V vehicle would.

All that said, charging speed is not nearly the issue you think it is. On pretty much any modern EV it will charge fast enough that by the time you have found a toilet and eaten a granola bar the car will be recharged and ready to go.

You are not allowed to leave a gas car unattended so the experience is different. You fill the tank and then go hunt down a bathroom and some food only after you are done. But in an EV you plug in and then go about your other business while the vehicle charges. Instead of comparing the charging time to the time you spend holding the gas pump, the more relevant comparison is on-ramp to off-ramp, and the difference between EV and gas is smaller than you realize.

There may still be a difference, but the magnitude is most likely less than you are expecting.

Instead of stressing out about charging speed, you should focus more on charger reliability and locations. And when you start looking at the chargers instead of the vehicle, 400 volt comes out on top right now.

Also, if you do want to optimize charging speed, the on road efficiency has a bigger impact than how quickly you can fill the battery. A big inefficient SUV, will spend a lot more time charging than a small efficient sedan even if the SUV has employed every possible trick to improve charging speed. When you can go twice as far on one unit of electricity, it takes half the time to replenish what you used.

The bottom here is an excellent point and really the best takeaway regarding charging and road trips. Efficiency is probably the most significant factor in charging speeds. If your car can go 4 miles per kWh it will charge twice as fast off the same charging curve as a vehicle that goes 2 mi/kWh. Well it will charge the exact same speed, but you can go twice as far to be more precise.

I am reposting this because it is so important to understand as all the talk of battery size, charging speed and charging curve dominates the range and charging conversation when efficiency should be kept in mind at our current battery technology.

It is important to remember that gasoline is substantially more energy dense than our current battery technology and it is much easier to fill more units of energy in a quicker period of time. Perhaps once solid state batteries become a reality in production we can be close to the same speed and energy density as gasoline and then all we will need to worry about is efficiency, just like MPG in ICE.

I watched a TFL video pretty recently where they compared the Hummer to a tacoma for cost of operation over a fixed distance trip. The thing I found most interesting was the amount of energy used. They did the conversion of gallons of fuel used in the Tacoma to kWh and the Hummer used 100 something kWh to make the trip and the Tacoma used 500 something. That right there illustrates why EV's are better for the environment.

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