Tesla Charging cannot be the standard NA adopts to.

[COdogman]

This is where you loose me. Personally, I could care less who owns a company or what they say online. I think it's weird to bash some random person who you don't know. 50% or more of the population has no issue with Elon. There's also a portion that idolizes him. I would rather look at the numbers, not the anti-elon echo chamber on these forums as to the "damage" he's causing to his company. Tesla is on track to sell 134% more vehicles YoY vs 2022. That doesn't appear to be too damaging to me. I would never consider the CEO of a company when purchasing something, I just don't subscribe to that thought process. In my opinion, you're just poisoning your own health by focusing on one man so much, but to each their own.



Yes it is still a work in progress. Companies will be adopting J3400 when it's finalized, which is said to be by year end. Here's more information.

You are choosing to focus on my personal opinion of Musk and not on the facts of the matter. I would have the same position about the connector standard if it were you or some other person who owned the rights to it. As I said, once that standardization agreement is finalized I would be satisfied on that front. Obviously SAE isn't simply comfortable with the "pledge" on Tesla's website or they would not be waiting on anything else from Tesla to move forward.

Musk is the walking, talking embodiment of his companies (his choice) and quite possibly the most online person in history (also his choice). You said yourself he is a pioneer and is idolized by many. I agree with both of those statements. But that is not the description of a "random guy".

He is free to say and do whatever he wants, but the data IS showing his behavior is harming the reputation of Tesla. One could argue the fact that Tesla cut prices this year for the first time to hold onto sales is another sign that people are looking elsewhere. Tesla's market share dropped from 78% to 58% in 2022 ALONE. 58% is still pretty damned good, but those are pants-shitting numbers if you run that company.

Tesla's favorability has also tanked in the last couple years, and it's impossible to not see part of that is due to Musk.

Musk deserves credit for what he has done in the past but he also deserves criticism for what he has done, and is doing wrong. He happens to put more of his opinions and life out in public than most company heads, which gives everyone more opportunities to judge him for those opinions and behavior. He will have to live with those decisions. So far the majority are not liking what they see...

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[Acoustic71]

Yep, Elon won. And you never know when in the future if he will decide to lock out Tesla Superchargers for other brands on a whim ... just like he did to Ukraine and Starlink access.

^This

 

[DevSecOps]

You are choosing to focus on my personal opinion of Musk and not on the facts of the matter. I would have the same position about the connector standard if it were you or some other person who owned the rights to it. As I said, once that standardization agreement is finalized I would be satisfied on that front. Obviously SAE isn't simply comfortable with the "pledge" on Tesla's website or they would not be waiting on anything else from Tesla to move forward.

Actually that's incorrect. I am focusing on the facts based on publicly available data. The problem with this thread is that people are focusing on Elon more than the facts and/or they are making up things based on their hatred of him.

The facts are that mfgs will be adopting SAE J3400. SAE is not waiting on some pledge from Tesla's website. There's nothing indicating that so I'm not sure where you got that from. SAE said in the link I provided that they are going through their standardization process with NACS. It's been said that it will be complete by year end (cited). The chair of the SAE NACS Taskforce said "... [Tesla] is leaving the future of NACS up to a consensus-based standards process."

Where people are correct is that Elon could cut ties to the supercharging network or charge non-Teslas more. Although he's pledged not to do either, that is very well within his control, but it has absolutely nothing to do with J3400. EA and other manufacturers have however also pledged to adopt NACS. So, worst case scenario we are still using non-Tesla networks, which is status quo. There will also be adapters, as promised by Rivian, so that you could still use CCS as well. We aren't going to be stranded without charge networks.

As for all of your other commentary. I go based on data, not polls which are constantly proven to be biased and incorrect. The data shows that Tesla, regardless of perception, is selling a record number of vehicles, on track for almost 2M this year. In Q2 2023 Tesla also took over Toyota as the #1 selling vehicle in California (cited). Believe what you wish, but facts show Tesla is killing it.

 

[Zorg]

This thread is funny. NACS has won. Tesla has the best supercharger network for now and probably for a few years. Getting access to it will accelerate the move to EV. I couldn't care less about Elon. Tesla has 100k+ employees and as far as I can tell, they're doing a great job.

 

[rraj2k81]

I get your concerns but a couple notes. Tesla is not a private company they are publicly held. Musk is not in control of Tesla...he has accountability to the board and shareholders.

CCS is bulky and cumbersome to use. In Europe they use CCS2 and not CCS1 like we have here. The NACS is just a better connector all around.

I think we should be happy about it and not too concerned. I agree Musk is kind of impulsive and I don't agree with a lot of what he says/does.

Absolutely agree with the benefits of the Tesla connector and the SC network especially as some one who has been utilizing the benefits of having access to this network.

I am just not a fan of who has the keys to this network and the uncertainity behind it, as it transitions to become the North American utility for BEV charging.

 

[ohseedee]

You are choosing to focus on my personal opinion of Musk and not on the facts of the matter. I would have the same position about the connector standard if it were you or some other person who owned the rights to it. As I said, once that standardization agreement is finalized I would be satisfied on that front. Obviously SAE isn't simply comfortable with the "pledge" on Tesla's website or they would not be waiting on anything else from Tesla to move forward.

Musk is the walking, talking embodiment of his companies (his choice) and quite possibly the most online person in history (also his choice). You said yourself he is a pioneer and is idolized by many. I agree with both of those statements. But that is not the description of a "random guy".

He is free to say and do whatever he wants, but the data IS showing his behavior is harming the reputation of Tesla. One could argue the fact that Tesla cut prices this year for the first time to hold onto sales is another sign that people are looking elsewhere. Tesla's market share dropped from 78% to 58% in 2022 ALONE. 58% is still pretty damned good, but those are pants-shitting numbers if you run that company.

Tesla's favorability has also tanked in the last couple years, and it's impossible to not see part of that is due to Musk.

Musk deserves credit for what he has done in the past but he also deserves criticism for what he has done, and is doing wrong. He happens to put more of his opinions and life out in public than most company heads, which gives everyone more opportunities to judge him for those opinions and behavior. He will have to live with those decisions. So far the majority are not liking what they see...

Good post. Based on data that can be discussed and debated. And I agree with a lot of this.

I would say I disagree with “Tesla's market share dropped from 78% to 58% in 2022 ALONE. 58% is still pretty damned good, but those are pants-shitting numbers if you run that company.” The EV market grew 65% from 2021 to 2022 in the US. So this means Tesla‘s market also grew. While yes their % of said market decreased, the outcome is still very positive for Tesla and translates to more money and shareholder value (what they actually care about). EVs still make up a small % of the car market, so there is going to be huge growth YOY, so % of the total EV market doesn't really matter. I’d be more interested in their YoY growth and maybe their % of total auto market (not just EV).

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/25/us-electric-car-sales-increased-65-in-2022/

Disclaimer: I’ve never driven a Tesla and I don’t actually care if they fail or succeed . Just interpreting the situation differently.

 

[rraj2k81]

I do have concerns that Elon could start a cable company like battle with another automaker. He gets into a fight with Rivian for example, and cuts their access to the network. Just like cable companies do with rights to various channels.

I'm mixed on government regulation, but this might be a time that they step in and require all charging companies to be open to all automobiles. No private networks. Maybe networks can offer subscription discounts similar to what gas stations do with credit cards or reward memberships. But no favoritism to any specific brands. Make them neutral.

This is one of the points I made as well. Just as Tesla was forced to adopt CCS and then financially incentiviced to open it for all BEVs in Europe, I would like to see this happen in NA. But, I don't foresee that ever happening here.

 

[rraj2k81]

To play devil's advocate, there is nothing stopping anyone on this thread from forming a company to build and scale a new charging standard that displaces NACS and/or CCS. If there is enough industry animosity behind NACS you may very will pull it off.

Anyone remember the shift from DVD's? There was DivX, HD-DVD and BluRay (which was owned by Sony). As a result of Sony's control over BluRay many companies threw in behind HD-DVD as the 'generic industry standard'. Well, it lost. Anyone still have a HD-DVD player around?

You can form a company, today, and shove Elon & Co. around in every single market in which they play. Rather than complain on a message board, just beat him at his game. That's one of the things that makes America an amazing place to live. And you don't even have to be in America to do it!

I actually still have an HD-DVD player and some HD-DVDs.

As you mentioned with the state of dissaray the entire CCS fast charging is in, in NA, I am waiting for some one to take on Elon, not to dethrone the SC network, but to humple EM.

This is one of the reason I got on the Rivian band wagon, because of RJs plan to build a proper CCS fast charging network. And from what I am seeing he is acheiving what others have not been able to.

 

[ohseedee]

Where people are correct is that Elon could cut ties to the supercharging network or charge non-Teslas more. Although he's pledged not to do either, that is very well within his control, but it has absolutely nothing to do with J3400. EA and other manufacturers have however also pledged to adopt NACS. So, worst case scenario we are still using non-Tesla networks, which is status quo. There will also be adapters, as promised by Rivian, so that you could still use CCS as well. We aren't going to be stranded without charge networks.

I think this is the point. For my personal situation best case I get access to a crap ton more chargers making my EV experience a lot better. Worst case I’m in the same situation I’m in today and have to use EA and others. I also would say I have no problem if Tesla owners get charged less than others. If that was the case I might just use an EA if available and was working and would use SC when it was not. I would still be better off than I am today. I can’t really fathom any thing Tesla could do to me (a Rivian owner) that would make my EV situation worse than it is today. I see only upside for me.

 

[jollyroger]

I don't find the problem being NACS on it's own, but rather it starts to make the supercharging network a de-facto standard, and as long as superchargers are around. "We are all good", Until the day that Elon feels that charging cars other than Teslas is hurting his brand, and shuts it down.

Elon has a long history of bucking regulators, so he'll do something and even though it's against the rules. That is the Elon discussion of this. If RJ made a connecter and said I will open it up and make sure our networks works with anyone who adopts the standard. I would take him at his word.

This also may start a decision processes that stops the rollout of Magic Dock, so now any brand not using NACS is locked out. (Unless such brands utilize an adapter as Rivian is planning to do, but this is beside the point).

There also the possibility that Tesla decides it wants something as part of the standard, that is not adopted, but they make their charges support it anyway, not caring if other manufactures might not work correctly with it anymore. True they would not be utilizing the standard, but this is where the distrust part of Elon comes in.

These cases might cause a huge disruption for manufactures utilization of Superchargers where yesterday you could make that road trip easily, but today it's no longer possible.

I don't know if any of these things will actually happen, but it's the track record of Elon no caring what the rules are to "move things forward" that have me concerned.

I'm not worried about Rivian and EA adopting NACS since they will support the standard. It's the superchargers out there that might one day be problematic.

My view is you have to look at the full picture, the viability of the technology and the folks who are distributing it. Usability is going to be a combination of the two. Despite it being a standard.

In any case I'm thinking of getting this bumper sticker, and none of you can stop me "Bwha ha ha ha"

 

[COdogman]

Actually that's incorrect. I am focusing on the facts based on publicly available data. The problem with this thread is that people are focusing on Elon more than the facts and/or they are making up things based on their hatred of him.

The facts are that mfgs will be adopting SAE J3400. SAE is not waiting on some pledge from Tesla's website. There's nothing indicating that so I'm not sure where you got that from. SAE said in the link I provided that they are going through their standardization process with NACS. It's been said that it will be complete by year end (cited). The chair of the SAE NACS Taskforce said "... [Tesla] is leaving the future of NACS up to a consensus-based standards process."

Where people are correct is that Elon could cut ties to the supercharging network or charge non-Teslas more. Although he's pledged not to do either, that is very well within his control, but it has absolutely nothing to do with J3400. EA and other manufacturers have however also pledged to adopt NACS. So, worst case scenario we are still using non-Tesla networks, which is status quo. There will also be adapters, as promised by Rivian, so that you could still use CCS as well. We aren't going to be stranded without charge networks.

As for all of your other commentary. I go based on data, not polls which are constantly proven to be biased and incorrect. The data shows that Tesla, regardless of perception, is selling a record number of vehicles, on track for almost 2M this year. In Q2 2023 Tesla also took over Toyota as the #1 selling vehicle in California (cited). Believe what you wish, but facts show Tesla is killing it.

You are going back and forth. One post you are focusing on the connector standard, the next you are complaining about people having personal opinions about Elon. He makes business decisions based on his opinions all the time, so why are others wrong to do it based on what he is doing or saying? What specifically is being "made up"?

I keep saying it wouldn't matter WHO owned the connector design - a "standard" should not be owned by any person. It should only be controlled by an objective third party body. I would have that same opinion if it were my own Mother who owned it. I'm glad it is in the process of being standardized and I agree that Tesla should do what they need to do as far as monetizing access to their network after that happens. That is the prudent move.

I never said they were waiting for anything regarding Tesla's pledge. I said if the "All our patent are belong to you" pledge meant anything then SAE or other companies could technically offer the design without going through the standardization process without concern of being sued. No other companies or standards body would ever trust that (wisely). My comment was highlighting the importance of the process in general. I was never concerned about being stranded without charging.

You did share data. So did I. Market share dropping 20% is data. Favorability dropping from 30% to 13% is also data, whether you want to admit it or not. How the public and your customers see your brand matters. I own a business and I would be dumb to not care about the reasons why if I saw it happening.

It's true their market share can go down and sales can go up. It's also possible that profits go down because of price cuts and sales go up. It's all data. You can cherry pick whatever you want from it. I was never suggesting Tesla isn't a successful company - I showed you that Elon's behavior is having some effect on Tesla's REPUTATION as a brand, which could hurt sales. It will take more time to truly see where that goes.

We obviously aren't going to agree on this, which is fine. I see your point of view even if I don't share it. On the main point here (the connector being standardized), we are on the same page.

 

[rraj2k81]

I don't find the problem being NACS on it's own, but rather it starts to make the supercharging network a de-facto standard, and as long as superchargers are around. "We are all good", Until the day that Elon feels that charging cars other than Teslas is hurting his brand, and shuts it down.

Elon has a long history of bucking regulators, so he'll do something and even though it's against the rules. That is the Elon discussion of this. If RJ made a connecter and said I will open it up and make sure our networks works with anyone who adopts the standard. I would take him at his word.

This also may start a decision processes that stops the rollout of Magic Dock, so now any brand not using NACS is locked out. (Unless such brands utilize an adapter as Rivian is planning to do, but this is beside the point).

There also the possibility that Tesla decides it wants something as part of the standard, that is not adopted, but they make their charges support it anyway, not caring if other manufactures might not work correctly with it anymore. True they would not be utilizing the standard, but this is where the distrust part of Elon comes in.

These cases might cause a huge disruption for manufactures utilization of Superchargers where yesterday you could make that road trip easily, but today it's no longer possible.

I don't know if any of these things will actually happen, but it's the track record of Elon no caring what the rules are to "move things forward" that have me concerned.

I'm not worried about Rivian and EA adopting NACS since they will support the standard. It's the superchargers out there that might one day be problematic.

My view is you have to look at the full picture, the viability of the technology and the folks who are distributing it. Usability is going to be a combination of the two. Despite it being a standard.

In any case I'm thinking of getting this bumper sticker, and none of you can stop me "Bwha ha ha ha"

YES !

 

[DevSecOps]

You are going back and forth. One post you are focusing on the connector standard, the next you are complaining about people having personal opinions about Elon.

Those two things have become intertwined in this thread. Just look at the OP. He's on a tangent about Musk and talking about how NACS can't become the standard because of him. Kinda hard to talk about the standard without including the hyperbole in this thread. It's not directed at you specifically.

You did share data. So did I. Market share dropping 20% is data.

Market share alone can't be relied upon because of all the other mfgs that are now making EVs and the overall increase in EV adoption. Of course Tesla will loose market share. If their sales YoY increase, which they are, then market share doesn't matter. When you are the one and only mfg for EVs you can price high and get away with it. The reduction in price is necessary because of competition. Of course Tesla isn't going to be able to make the same amount that they once did, competition always drives down prices, which is good for us. I fail to see, based on the data, that Tesla's sales are in decline due to Elon. IMO public polls are not data to be relied upon. Over the last 2 years Morning Consult has published no less than 10 different anti-Elon hit pieces, they cite their own sources and never provide survey data for analysis.

On the main point here (the connector being standardized), we are on the same page.

Good!

 

[SDH]

I don't find the problem being NACS on it's own, but rather it starts to make the supercharging network a de-facto standard, and as long as superchargers are around. "We are all good", Until the day that Elon feels that charging cars other than Teslas is hurting his brand, and shuts it down

So what if Elon just "shuts it down" ? We would just be back to the same situation we are in today where non-Tesla's can't use the Tesla SC network. Big deal, we just have to rely on EA and others as we do now (as crap as they are).

And the bumper sticker.... really? Are folks that insecure that they think others will judge them for driving a Tesla? You have the same views as EM just because you own a Tesla?? I buy stuff that's made in China - doesn't make me a communist. Grow up.

 

[lefkonj]

I am not a fan of Elon at all. However the NACS is not an official standard as of yet, everyone is kind of 'We will figure out using the Tesla style port over the next year or so'. There will be a standard that Tesla will be involved with but it won't be his alone. Will cars have two ports like the Audi/Porsche but make 1 CCS and 1 NACS, we don't know. We vehicles come with adapters, that we know is a big yes. Will both CCS and NACS change to become something new that has more power at faster speeds, totally possible.


This reminds me of the beginnings of Power over Ethernet. Cisco had their thing because they needed it to sell phones. The industry adopted 802.af, a standard that was extremely similar to Cisco's initial creation. Over the years we have had many changes to this but today we have 802.3at which has more than double the power but is available from dozens of vendors globally.

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