v-Lockers. Let's poke a dead horse.

[R.I.P.]

Where about in Southern Oregon? name of school? Maybe you guys could run a class just for Rivians so owners know how not to exceed the R1's technical limits.

Galice Oregon. The park is 200 acres of private, that borders millions of acres of BLM.

The valley is known as Rogue Indian Hills, Blue Canyon and Hellsgate locally. The park itself is for our private amusement, testing and to train guys that want to come on trips that might need a primer. It is 100% use at your own risk of course, and by invite only (I have invited anybody from here that would like to use it).

Run a class? Sure, but 1-on-1 is usually the best. This is Oregon, so how the individual feels about "Oregon Pinstriping" is going to effect trail choice, as is whether the vehicle has underbody protection. Even for somebody that wants to avoid any possibility of body damage, however, it is a worthwhile venue. It gets crazy steep really quickly, and if wet at all, gets really slick.

I will tell you up front, that QMs have to be tied off at multiple points on even the easier trails to keep them from going sideways over the edge when wet/snowy. Where a bone stock F250 or a DM will just drive across it, the QMs (and the Yoda spools) tend to lose lateral traction really early and will move sideways as soon as they start to slip, and there is no way to stop it (no "unlock" switch on the dash) except to tie them off on the uphill side for those portions of the trail. See my "quads vs lockers" thread for some of those scary experiences.

For anybody that owns a properly locked Jeep and wants to duplicate how a QM acts on a slippery side slope, do this:

1. Find a very slippery side slope.
2. Drive the Jeep across it with the diffs unlocked. Apply sufficient power to slip the wheels. The wheels with the least traction will slip, leaving the wheels with the most traction anchored to hold you from slipping sideways down the hill. This is how a differential works.
3. Now, lock both diffs, and do the course again. The instant you cause the wheels to slip, all 4 will do so; all anchoring effort disappears and you move sideways down the hill (over the edge or into the tree if such a thing is there).

That is how a quad works in those situations (just one of the unfortunate things it does). There is no way to "unlock" and get two anchor wheels the way you can in the Jeep (or a Rivian DM with a diff). This means that Jeep trails here are unpassable to quads, unless you tie them off at each such obstacle.

To say that I have been disappointed with the quads real world performance is an understatement.

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[R.I.P.]

If not a physical locker, I would at the very least like to see Rivian improve behavior at low speeds. In technical situations, combined with novice experience, the answer is not to give it more beans—to brute force up the obstacle. That could very well cause a chain of unfortunate mistakes. Those operating Rivian-owned vehicles can afford to make mistakes more than we can, because cost of those repairs are not coming out of private pockets.

They did. The Enduro, with it's excellent traditional traction control is very mannerly with almost anything you throw at it; including most low speed obstacles. It needs no "modes" to try to tell a computer how to act, it just acts like any other 4x4 with good torque vectoring.

Once lockers are added, it will be as capable as any other off-road machine this heavy (yeah, hard to get around that one), but seriously, it is very good even without them. I am taking it to some very remote sites, with significant challenges even with the street tires on it at this point; it is that good.

Once Atomic gets me my 20's, it will be wearing Toyo Open Country MT's again and will be a great 4x4; no fuss no muss.

 

[SoCal Rob]

Can we just stop arguing and agree that while the R1 is incredible, it is still not quite the pinnacle of automotive supremacy that we would like to think it is?

I hope there aren’t too many people out there who think that it truly is the pinnacle of automotive supremacy.

To people who need a vehicle which can capably fill several different roles, it can be the best choice overall, even if it isn’t the best at any one role.

edit: to clarify what I was referencing

 

[R.I.P.]

I hope there aren’t too many people out there who think that it truly is the pinnacle of automotive supremacy.

To people who need a vehicle which can capably fill several different roles, it can be the best choice overall, even if it isn’t the best at any one role.

edit: to clarify what I was referencing

In my specific case, what it is best at is an all-around every day machine. It's a truck, I can use it for truck things, I can throw a trailer behind it and often do, and it's still very economical to take off and go to Oregon in. It is now the vehicle I have with me most.

Now that I am not fighting all four corners blindly trying to figure out what to do, I even love it Off-road. The ride in the rough stuff is better than any of my other off-road rigs, its size makes it less cumbersome than my full-size pickups, and let's not forget... I'm doing it all with no engine noise and no combustion! I find myself slowly creeping along ridges looking and listening to nature, and feeling much more a part of it and at home there then with any other rig I've had in the woods.
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[EVentually]

Just thought I'd chime in and say as someone who offroads almost exclusively for overlanding, I'm learning a ton from this post. Thanks all! The QM R1T has been great on everything I've needed to do and I fall in love with it again whenever I'm using soft sand and rally/drift modes. I'm at the sweet spot where I'd happily take the luxuries those provide (which are very fun) over locking diffs. Maybe in the future we won't have to choose, but such is the early adopter tax.

 

[SoCal Rob]

In my specific case, what it is best at is an all-around every day machine. It's a truck, I can use it for truck things, I can throw a trailer behind it and often do, and it's still very economical to take off and go to Oregon in. It is now the vehicle I have with me most.

Now that I am not fighting all four corners blindly trying to figure out what to do, I even love it Off-road. The ride in the rough stuff is better than any of my other off-road rigs, its size makes it less cumbersome than my full-size pickups, and let's not forget... I'm doing it all with no engine noise and no combustion! I find myself slowly creeping along ridges looking and listening to nature, and feeling much more a part of it and at home there then with any other rig I've had in the woods.
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Each of us has a perspective and, for us, the QM hasn’t been a liability… yet. Given that we do close to 100% of our adventuring in the desert I think it’ll continue to be at least as good as our LR3, and probably a lot better.

However, at 7” wider and 10” longer than the LR3, we see the size as a liability we’ll have to live with. The cameras help.

I think you’re right and the lack of NVH at low speed on trails really is a game changer when it comes to experiencing nature. It’s like the difference between sailing and being in a power boat.

I suspect that if Rivian really wants to make a hard-core off-road vehicle, they have most of what they need between existing hardware and patents. I’m just not sure that they will go that route given the added cost and more-limited pool of buyers.

 

[usofrob]

After some extensive testing in 2022, we approached Rivian techs with the following problems:
-Badly herky-jerky over low-speed obstacles
-slipping wheels are always starting/stopping trying, often vainly to "find" the traction.
-No ability to spin-up any usable wheel-speed when needed
-Torque-stall any time two corners are lifted
-Non-existent lateral locking on slippery surfaces
-Overly fragile suspension when coupled with the vehicle weight

Seems like a great summary. I've been enjoying reading about all this, even though I'm very unlikely to put myself into these sort of off road scenarios.

Unrelated to lockers, but I'd like to see a comparison of the QM vs DM Perf on an autocross or road course track. I wonder if the QM can actually put more power down when turning hard than the DM Perf. It doesn't have much of a power advantage, and the traction control of the DM might allow for more power to get to the outside wheel. Although, it might need higher grip tires to really get the weight transfer.

 

[Visket]

What a great conversation. Looks like we've run out of steam (hmmmm... has anyone ever thought of using steam as propulsion or maybe to generate electricity??).

So, Rivian....

I think the vast majority of folks on this thread really, really, want "v-Lockers", in whatever variant you can muster.

Also, good to know that someone took an R1T through the Rubicon, even with whatever version of software was available at the time. Very impressive.

So if you want a vehicle that dominates on the street, and can go do the Rubicon / TAT / RR, etc... go get an R1 and leave the Prius' to grandma.

A lot of the gripes, I think, can be fixed with software tweaks. And the more folks like R.I.P. and a host of others, give valuable feedback to Rivian, the better the chances of those tweaks in the future.

I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Greg Chick]

Wow, thanks for the detail on the subject, I found it interesting but now I wonder why. I am just trying to get mileage out of my 21" gum rubber tread tires and when needed stay on the pavement in the snow. My reason for getting the R1T was the ground clearance and all wheel drive.
I obviously not a rock climber, or professional in off road competition, just amazed how far some of that stuff can go.
Rivian seems to be the beginning of an off-road monster.

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