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[DuckTruck]

You make some good points. And GM has an impressive amount of inertia and there are many points, throughout its history, where it's failed to adapt or get out of its own way. However, I honestly believe that DEALERS have been a significant factor preventing the legacy autos from moving to EVs.

Even recently, Cadillac dealers have been opting to terminate their franchise licenses rather than upgrade their dealerships with EVSEs and the tech necessary to sell and service BEVs. That really blows my mind -- especially since Cadillac has some cool EV products coming down the pipeline.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/cadillac-franchise-dealers-jump-ship-ev-sales-lyriq/

CommodoreAmiga. I couldn't agree more. I love my 2016 Cadillac ELR. It's a great driver and I love the styling, inside and out. They only made them for two years (2014 & 2016) and had a hard time selling them, primarily because they didn't really try. As was the case with the Volt, they were Halo Cars that helped with GM's NHTSA Corporate Average Fuel Economy scores. I've read too many stories of people walking into Chevy dealerships in search of the Volt, only to have the sales person try to upsell them to one of their ICE vehicles. They did the same to me. I tried three different dealerships before I found a used ELR in the Midwest on CarGuru.com, took a red-eye to Ohio and a week to drive her home.

Regarding the ELR, I think Cadillac produced but one commercial for it (I saw it later, posted with an article talking about this issue, and thought the commercial was great). However, the company didn't seem to push it beyond that and I'm not sure I didn't know more about the car than the good folks at the dealership I bought it from. I'm not that bright, I just spend a lot of time studying topics that fascinate me, and the Volt was one of those cars that I felt was a step in the right direction. That led me to its better looking sister, the ELR (don't get mad at me, I really love the Volt as well, just don't tell Elly). For as much as GM did to develop the Volt & ELR plug-in hybrid technology, neither family of dealers seemed to have much enthusiasm for selling them.

Once they're out the door, they generate very little service revenue for the dealer. That same service revenue virtually disappears when you look at the Spark and Bolt. Hopefully, those lessons and the threat posed by Tesla to GM's car sales opened their eyes. I think they're even more afraid of the threat Rivian and the growing ET (Electric Truck) movement represents to their much more profitable Truck and SUV lineups. The same is true with Ford, Dodge, Toyota, and others. This is especially true given America's ever-shrinking demand for sedans and coupes.

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[CommodoreAmiga]

Once they're out the door, they generate very little service revenue for the dealer. That same type of revenue virtually disappears when you look at the Spark and Bolt.

I see this repeated often, but it doesn't mark sense, to me. Are you aware of any studies to back it up?

I've owned my fair share of new vehicles, and they almost never have to go to service for ICE-related issues (except for oil changes). I have had to bring every new car to the dealer, multiple times, for non-ICE-related issues, however. So from my perspective, service needs on a BEV will be the same as an ICE vehicle, except for oil changes.

 

[azbill]

I did have an issue with my Bolt, the front wheel hubs were making noise and had to be replaced under warranty at about 30K miles. Just an example of how some repairs are needed. Another thing to consider is that one day in the future lower income people will be buying older used EVs and those will become more likely to need repairs, just like older ICE vehicles that they purchase today. It is also less likely that an owner will be able to repair drivetrain parts on an EV.

A have a more funny one however, I owned a Volt before my Bolt and it had an emmissions recall for the gas engine.

 

[Trandall]

It is also less likely that an owner will be able to repair drivetrain parts on an EV.

I wouldn't assume this necessarily. In ten years their may be replacement parts available for BEV's, and 3rd party upgrade performance parts. Home/ self maintenance and repairs will probably be as common as ice vehicles.
I watched Star Wars and lower class creatures are always finding used parts and making repairs and modifications to their droids.
We are probably just in that weird middle section of early adaptation that causes this to not be true.

 

[DuckTruck]

Exactly, it's been deliberate to sell cars that require high maintenance and wear out quickly. I'm not even considering possible environmental advantages just a cost of ownership and superior product standpoint. Probably should have started a new thread instead of hijacking.

Trandall, Hijacking is always easier with accomplices. You struck a chord with your "high maintenance and wear out quickly" note. I'm 63 and have owned nine cars....so far (five are still hanging around). I tend to hold them for decades and each and every one has come in handy for getting me to and from my monthly therapy sessions and support groups for my hoarding (I call it "collecting") disorder. The R1T will be my tenth. I've taken good care of all of them, and have had good luck with all of them. All, but one...

I don't want to call that one out by name, but let's just say it rhymes with "Tord Faurus SHO". Really a great driving car with an amazing powerplant. It was especially fun to drive when all of its parts stayed attached, or at least in close proximity to their intended location. That said, and in defense of Tord, the six or seven rental cars they arranged to get me through about five months of repair/reassembly sessions for my loose collection of parts never failed me during the only four-and-a-half years of Tord ownership I ever plan to experience. And at least a few of those rentals were Tords. I look back on that ownership experience as true "Tordture".

I know Tord has a very devoted fanbase, especially for their pickups, most notably the one that falls somewhere between F-149 & F-151. Had my vehicle been as fully and properly assembled as those icons (preferably before the company sold it to me), I may never have had the opportunity to experience the value of a dealership that invests so very, very much into their advertising.

There! Now, don't I feel better! "Serenity, Now! Serenity, Now!"

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I watched Star Wars and lower class creatures are always finding used parts and making repairs and modifications to their droids.

The Star Wars Universe must have had strong Right-to-Repair laws. We need to pass similar protections if we want to be able to maintain the products we pay for.

Look at John Deer to see how dystopian our repair future could become.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

...rhymes with "Tord Faurus SHO"...
...falls somewhere between F-149 & F-151...

Sorry to highjack a highjack, but why do people do this? You make some odd meandering argument about how you don't want to say the name, but then, for all intents and purposes, you say the name. I'm genuinely curious what motivates this?

 

[Trandall]

DuckTruck, I LOVED my 1993 SHO it was way underrated IMO. I tend to buy new or very low mileage ICE cars and sell them when they reach their 10th birthday. Vehicles tend to last through +,- 15 NY winters before the salt totals them out.

 

[azbill]

I wouldn't assume this necessarily. In ten years their may be replacement parts available for BEV's, and 3rd party upgrade performance parts. Home/ self maintenance and repairs will probably be as common as ice vehicles.
I watched Star Wars and lower class creatures are always finding used parts and making repairs and modifications to their droids.
We are probably just in that weird middle section of early adaptation that causes this to not be true.

There is a pretty serious fire danger when dealing with 400-800V lithium batteries.

 

[Trandall]

There is a pretty serious fire danger when dealing with 400-800V lithium batteries.

Agreed, I would go as far as categorizing it as an explosion risk... very fast exothermic reaction. I wouldn't recommend replacing damaged cells or modules within a battery assemble in your attached garage (i've seen this on youtube) but relatively safe procedures for replacement of a pack assembly is feasible. I was thinking about replacing charge controllers or the drive controllers, or even components within them, coolant pumps, fluids and the like.

 

[DuckTruck]

I see this repeated often, but it doesn't mark sense, to me. Are you aware of any studies to back it up?

I've owned my fair share of new vehicles, and they almost never have to go to service for ICE-related issues (except for oil changes). I have had to bring every new car to the dealer, multiple times, for non-ICE-related issues, however. So from my perspective, service needs on a BEV will be the same as an ICE vehicle, except for oil changes.

I didn't save the interviews/discussions I've read and heard relating to Chevy dealerships talking about how little service work their Volt/Bolt/Sparks generate, but they're out there. I remember the comments from 2016, when looking to purchase a Volt/ELR. Yes, they will certainly generate some service work, especially during the warranty period, but I'll take the dealers' comments to support what feels intuitive to me.

I think you made the point about the more recent news that Cadillac dealerships are opting out/not wanting to invest money into the new technology for their upcoming electric vehicles. This is similar to what Chevy went through earlier, only without the "You're either with us, or against us" mandate that Cadillac has issued. That's a shame as Cadillac and GM seem to be going all-in on EV/ET at this point. A bigger shame from my perspective is that they got a huge jump start on the automotive world way back in the last millennia with the EV1, and then decided to sacrifice it to appease some higher power. As the cost of EV purchase and ownership continues to come down and the demand rises, all legacy manufacturers will hear the "You're either with us, or against us" mandate from consumers.

I hope all of their recent proclamations and big advertising dollars spent on the Super Bowl are indicative about how serious GM is this time around. Mary Barra sure sounds like it will be happening, and I hope it plays out soon enough for them to not only survive, but thrive.

 

[DuckTruck]

Sorry to highjack a highjack, but why do people do this? You make some odd meandering argument about how you don't want to say the name, but then, for all intents and purposes, you say the name. I'm genuinely curious what motivates this?

For my part, it was just an attempt at humor during a rather humorless time. Of course, I think it was very clear from the outset as to who I was outing for their very poor build quality. That was the point. I assume it was clear to most everyone that that was the point. If that was lost on anyone, so be it.

The facts of that series of events keeps me from ever trusting that manufacturer and their dealer network again. Humor, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. In most any scenario in life, if I don't like what I see, I move on. I frequently find threads and individual comments in our forum that don't attract my attention, so I simply move on. I trust that others do the same.

I fell on my sword, or at least poked some fun at myself for joining the hijacking that was underway. It's so much easier to just stay in a thread and drop a comment than to go through the steps to opening a new thread. When I catch one of these sidetracks that doesn't relate to the topic, or one that doesn't interest me, I simply move on. To each, their own. I appreciate you for sharing your thoughts with me and, if you're still with me at this point, I pledge to be better at staying on subject in the future.

Take care and be well, my friend.

 

[CommodoreAmiga]

I didn't save the interviews/discussions I've read and heard relating to Chevy dealerships talking about how little service work their Volt/Bolt/Sparks generate, but they're out there. I remember the comments from 2016, when looking to purchase a Volt/ELR. Yes, they will certainly generate some service work, especially during the warranty period, but I'll take the dealers' comments to support what feels intuitive to me.

Dealers are probably the last people I trust to give an honest assessment on this topic. They've demonstrated, time and time again, that they will resist change at any cost and by any means necessary.

I'd be curious to see an independent study, however.

Based solely on my (anecdotal) personal experiences and browsing forums, it seems that most dealer visits are not exclusively ICE-related. Even most oil change appointments add something else with them, such as a tire rotation.

And many shops claim their oil change "deals" are loss-leaders, anyway.

 

[DuckTruck]

Dealers are probably the last people I trust to give an honest assessment on this topic. They've demonstrated, time and time again, that they will resist change at any cost and by any means necessary.

I'd be curious to see an independent study, however.

Based solely on my (anecdotal) personal experiences and browsing forums, it seems that most dealer visits are not exclusively ICE-related. Even most oil change appointments add something else with them, such as a tire rotation.

And many shops claim their oil change "deals" are loss-leaders, anyway.

I agree that there are frequently other services that get added to a visit that are not exclusively ICE-related. Your comment about claimed "deals" and loss-leaders really hits home, as I'm sure it does for others. Just as we were talking earlier about annoying hijacks on this thread (I'm guilty, as charged), every time I go to a dealership for an oil change, I'm prepared to get financially hijacked into any number of additional services that seem to add an extra decimal point onto the bill. I'll openly admit that these types of hijacks never seem humorous, even to me. Any Service Writer worth their weight knows how to pitch a number of services at the time of the appointment and again upon arrival. As you and others have pointed out, Service is King when it comes to making a profit. I've frequently appreciated an advisor pointing out important needs that I may have ignored, even if some of them are fluff, or at the very least, premature. It always helps to know your vehicle and the manufacturer's warranty and service recommendations in advance.

Any stubbornness for the dealership community to embrace the move towards non-ICE vehicles will likely hasten their demise. I'm going to see if I can find anything from Sandy Munro that addresses any issues he may have uncovered relating to legacy auto dealerships' trepidation/reluctance in accepting the BEVs and PHEVs they've been asked to sell and service. He's an amazing guy and performs a great service for the consumer.

Change is inevitable, even if it may be painful. That pain and effort to make the change is still a better option than becoming extinct. I think the entire EV movement is a good example of Darwinism in action. There are a sizable and growing number of auto brands that have disappeared or have been swallowed up because they couldn't cut it in the I.C.E. age. As that epoch winds down (and it will) and electrification soars, the competition is going to get much tougher and will move much faster than it has over the last 100 years. That growing light at the end of the tunnel very well may be a fast moving train.

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