Rivian introduces LFP Batteries

[the long way downunder]

Not for R1, not "entire lineup" … wouldn't that site get just as many clicks without embellishing "LFP pack and new Enduro motor in the 500 and 700"?

EV sites are starved for actual Rivian communication, so they have to scrounge Scaringe tweets.

Another advantage of LFP is L2X (aka bi-directional charge port) using the car as a house battery

I was hoping that headline was bringing actual news and communication from Rivian to explain what they're doing and what to expect now that there's some information about pack configurations.

Looking at the competition, I think Rivian has to go 800V with a flat charge curve up to 350kW and a heat pump just to be relevant to buyers who have experience with EVs, roadtrips, winter, etc. Of course many buyers can make full use of the existing 2018 technology in R1s, but hopefully the factory will start with at least 2022 technology. That said, ironically, if the only thing Rivian does is unlock bi-directional in existing R1Ts, that's enough reason for me to keep a Rivian. The obvious concern being they might well just say "for all vehicles produced since some date around the time of announcing, "great news, we've completely redesigned the charge point" (something Scaringe told Munro a year ago.)

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[the long way downunder]

This for sure. My MINI had a scheduled departure time and allowed for the "low cost charging" schedule to predict the end of charging. So if I said I was leaving at 7am it would finish charging about 30 min prior to departure and you could simultaneously tell it to precondition the cabin for the departure time. Kinda baffling that Rivian still hasn't added that feature. The MINI doesn't have a battery heater at all, so this was the only way to try and mitigate cold soak and pulling as much as 50% of it's acceleration on cold mornings.

The game of charging:
1. plug in and start charging. wait for charging to come up to 11kW (or whatever you normally get.)
2. after a bit of thinking, the R1T will report the time it needs to reach the desired state of charge.
3. note that duration, subtract from desired departure time, set charging start time accordingly.

You can also use the app to turn on cabin temp 30 minutes before departure to help get the batteries percolating a little warmth just by running the "hair dryer."

Even if the R1 is not plugged in, it will use as much battery as it likes to keep the battery temp comfy … this wastes a lot of energy (money) and still doesn't pre-condition the battery for anything more than a drowsy teenager level of regen effort in the morning for the first 10-20 miles.

Tesla now uses additional friction braking to simulate regen.

Here's a visual of how much heat escapes the R1T:

 

[SDH]

LFP batteries or Duracell. I don't care.

Does is drive well, is it a cool truck? Yes. Done.

 

[Trandall]

I much prefer NMC chemistry to LFP here is why:
LFP has lower energy density which means a heavier vehicle and crappier driving dynamics per a given maximum range.

LFP have lower max charge/ discharge rates, this can be mitigated some and only affects performance on the very top end (and not at all if their is a lower bottleneck to performance elsewhere) but none-the-less it exists.

LFP are much more sensitive to cold temperatures in two key ways, first their energy capacity drops substantially, secondly charging them cold causes damage which means they need to be heated before charging this increases both charge time and energy used.

NMC maximum charge (100%) limitations only become a factor if you very frequently need 100% charge. If you need 100% charge 50 times a year the degradation is minimal compared to if you need it 250 times a year, is my understanding. Basically this limitation is oversold to highlight inferior LFP batteries to buyers.

NMC have lower cycle life expectancy, again this can be mitigated but remains true. My take is that it is the difference between something like 400K miles and 320K miles, so if you only expect the vehicle to last 280K miles then the battery longevity makes little difference.

In fairness if you live in a warm climate much of the LFP drawbacks are removed making them more appealing. I know I'm making a bunch of blanket statements here without siting references so feel free to correct me if these assessments are flawed.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I much prefer NMC chemistry to LFP here is why:
LFP has lower energy density which means a heavier vehicle and crappier driving dynamics per a given maximum range.

LFP have lower max charge/ discharge rates, this can be mitigated some and only affects performance on the very top end (and not at all if their is a lower bottleneck to performance elsewhere) but none-the-less it exists.

LFP are much more sensitive to cold temperatures in two key ways, first their energy capacity drops substantially, secondly charging them cold causes damage which means they need to be heated before charging this increases both charge time and energy used.

NMC maximum charge (100%) limitations only become a factor if you very frequently need 100% charge. If you need 100% charge 50 times a year the degradation is minimal compared to if you need it 250 times a year, is my understanding. Basically this limitation is oversold to highlight inferior LFP batteries to buyers.

NMC have lower cycle life expectancy, again this can be mitigated but remains true. My take is that it is the difference between something like 400K miles and 320K miles, so if you only expect the vehicle to last 280K miles then the battery longevity makes little difference.

In fairness if you live in a warm climate much of the LFP drawbacks are removed making them more appealing. I know I'm making a bunch of blanket statements here without siting references so feel free to correct me if these assessments are flawed.

You're not wrong with most of that, but I personally have no issues with the drawbacks that LFP has because of the ethical concerns about the materials used in NMC batteries. Even if the cobalt obtained for the battery you are using was done ethically, that's still more material that's coming out of the ground that could have been used elsewhere otherwise.

 

[Trandall]

You're not wrong with most of that, but I personally have no issues with the drawbacks that LFP has because of the ethical concerns about the materials used in NMC batteries. Even if the cobalt obtained for the battery you are using was done ethically, that's still more material that's coming out of the ground that could have been used elsewhere otherwise.

True, I should have mentioned the atrocity that is Cobalt mining. My understanding is that there are several raw materials including some that are used in LFP batteries that are some combination of environmental and/ or humanitarian disasters. This includes materials needed for wind, hydro and solar renewables. The ethics of material sourcing is something that needs to be much more widely understood to intelligently make decisions on "saving the planet"
This is why I never bring up EV's as potential "green" planet savers. If we are reducing CO2 emissions by X amount only to enslave millions of people and strip mine huge swaths is that a good trade off?

 

[thrill]

...Tesla now uses additional friction braking to simulate regen...

Finally, someone recognizing the importance of *consistent* feedback in operating satisfaction.

 

[thrill]

...This is why I never bring up EV's as potential "green" planet savers. If we are reducing CO2 emissions by X amount only to enslave millions of people and strip mine huge swaths is that a good trade off?

The "enslavement" is not a necessity of using the technology.

 

[Bullitt]

I’ve had an LFP Tesla M3 for almost 2 years now. 40k miles on it and charged to 100% almost daily. I’ve spent time with it in Seattle in the winter, Tahoe in the snow and freezing temps for days as well. It has been fantastic. If there’s been range loss for the cold it was unnoticeable. Charging was not much different either. Check out Bjorn Nylands videos in Norway with LFP to get some better extreme weather results.

Bottom line for me is that it’s been a better experience to have a base model LFP Tesla always have 250 miles of range where friends with NCA battery Teslas have much less range since they can’t charge to 100% all the time. Weight difference is negligible at the weight of vehicle these things are!

While my experience may be unique, I believe LFP is a great option to introduce to the line up.

 

[SANZC02]

I’ve had an LFP Tesla M3 for almost 2 years now. 40k miles on it and charged to 100% almost daily. I’ve spent time with it in Seattle in the winter, Tahoe in the snow and freezing temps for days as well. It has been fantastic. If there’s been range loss for the cold it was unnoticeable. Charging was not much different either. Check out Bjorn Nylands videos in Norway with LFP to get some better extreme weather results.

Bottom line for me is that it’s been a better experience to have a base model LFP Tesla always have 250 miles of range where friends with NCA battery Teslas have much less range since they can’t charge to 100% all the time. Weight difference is negligible at the weight of vehicle these things are!

While my experience may be unique, I believe LFP is a great option to introduce to the line up.

I agree, if you want to get EV adoption to be mainstream then LFP will play a big part in getting costs down especially on entry level models. The fact that you can charge to 100% on a normal basis helps close the daily range gap for other formulas.

 

[Autolycus]

Can Rivian just go on and announce their major breakthrough in solid-state batteries that uses none of the "challenging" chemicals? That would make the world a lot better. k, thanks!

In the real world though, having a mix of NMC and LFP is very good thing for Rivian and for the market generally. Diversity of supply and the chemical needs will help. Many customers will benefit from LFP's lower cost and won't suffer from any of its downsides.

 

[Rivian_Hugh_III]

LFP batteries underperform Lithium Ion batteries in the cold.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/carmakers-are-switching-to-cheaper-ev-batteries-but-theres-a-big-trade

Here’s Chat-GPT’s response to a quote from that article:

Q: I recently read that “ a known con of LFP batteries is their range drops faster in cold weather as compared to Lithium-Ion batteries due to lower energy density.” Is this true?


A: I apologize for the confusion. The statement you mentioned is not accurate. In fact, lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP) batteries are a type of lithium-ion battery and are known for their excellent performance in cold weather compared to some other types of lithium-ion batteries.

Unlike other types of lithium-ion batteries, LFP batteries have a relatively high thermal stability and can perform well in a wide range of temperatures, including cold weather. While it's true that extreme cold temperatures can still impact the performance of LFP batteries to some extent, their energy density is not significantly affected. In fact, LFP batteries have a higher energy density compared to some other types of lithium-ion batteries, which means they can store more energy per unit of volume or weight.

LFP batteries typically have a lower risk of thermal runaway or thermal events, such as overheating and thermal runaway, which can be a concern in other types of lithium-ion batteries. This is due to the stable chemistry of LFP batteries, which makes them less prone to thermal-related issues, including range drops, in cold weather.

Overall, LFP batteries are generally considered to have good cold weather performance compared to other types of lithium-ion batteries, making them suitable for applications where cold weather operation is required, such as in electric vehicles, renewable energy storage systems, and other outdoor applications. However, it's still important to consider proper battery management practices, including avoiding prolonged exposure to extreme temperatures, to optimize the performance and lifespan of any battery, including LFP batteries.

 

[Rivian_Hugh_III]

I thought LFP was cheaper? Did your Super Google get it wrong?

Sounds like I wasn’t being clear enough about the specific batteries that LFP were being compared to. Obviously they’re more expensive than some and less expensive than others. When I got more specific this was the response:

Q: When compared to the batteries used in most electric vehicles, are LFP batteries cheaper?


A: When compared to the batteries used in most electric vehicles (EVs), lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP) batteries are generally considered to be cheaper. LFP batteries are known for their relatively lower cost compared to some other types of lithium-ion batteries commonly used in EVs, such as lithium nickel cobalt manganese (Li-NMC) or lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) batteries.

There are several reasons why LFP batteries are generally considered to be cheaper:

1. Lower cost of materials: LFP batteries use lower-cost materials, such as iron phosphate (FePO4), which is less expensive compared to other materials used in some other types of lithium-ion batteries, such as cobalt, nickel, and manganese.
2. Simpler manufacturing process: The manufacturing process for LFP batteries is relatively simpler compared to some other types of lithium-ion batteries. This can result in lower production costs, as fewer steps and materials are involved in the production process.
3. Longer lifespan: LFP batteries are known for their longer lifespan compared to some other types of lithium-ion batteries. This means that over the lifetime of the battery, the cost per cycle or cost per kilowatt-hour (kWh) of energy stored can be lower, making them more cost-effective in the long run.
4. Lower risk of thermal runaway: LFP batteries have a lower risk of thermal runaway, which is a safety concern in batteries. This can result in lower costs associated with safety measures and thermal management systems in EVs.

However, it's important to note that the cost of a battery can vary depending on various factors, including the size, capacity, quality, and market conditions. Battery costs are also subject to change as technology evolves and economies of scale are achieved through increased production volumes. Additionally, the total cost of an EV battery pack includes not only the cost of the cells but also other components, such as the battery management system, cooling system, and packaging, which can also impact the overall cost of an EV battery pack.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

I dunno about for my Rivian or other EV, but I certainly want an LFP in things like flashlights, drills, etc.

Things were I might completely forget to charge the battery for a long time.

Apparently LFP is okay with 100% discharge without damaging them.

"And last but not least, LiFePO4 batteries can not only reach 3,000-5,000 cycles or more… They can reach 100% depth of discharge (DOD). Why does that matter? Because that means, with LiFePO4 (unlike other batteries) you don’t have to worry about over discharging your battery."

https://lithiumhub.com/lifepo4-batteries-what-they-are-and-why-theyre-the-best/

 

[Joel]

I’ve had an LFP Tesla M3 for almost 2 years now. 40k miles on it and charged to 100% almost daily. I’ve spent time with it in Seattle in the winter, Tahoe in the snow and freezing temps for days as well. It has been fantastic. If there’s been range loss for the cold it was unnoticeable. Charging was not much different either. Check out Bjorn Nylands videos in Norway with LFP to get some better extreme weather results.

Bottom line for me is that it’s been a better experience to have a base model LFP Tesla always have 250 miles of range where friends with NCA battery Teslas have much less range since they can’t charge to 100% all the time. Weight difference is negligible at the weight of vehicle these things are!

While my experience may be unique, I believe LFP is a great option to introduce to the line up.

Polestar uses LFP they are being overly cautious and telling owners to only charge to 90%. i am almost 20k miles and I charge to 100% daily no issues and no excessive wear. The lower gain with half the motors make since it’s LFP.

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