GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[scottf200]

yes. Why GM is killing off the Bolt is beyond me.

It is not using their new battery platform.

AND bad PR stigma for fires.

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[SASSquatch]

I'd personally just be happy with a firewall between the companies so that Elon wouldn't be able to make changes to the "standard" in a way that benefits Tesla vehicles while causing large burdens for other manufacturers.

I want a firewall between Elon Musk and any EV I own now or in the future.

+1 For Elon Firewall.

 

[Autolycus]

I'd personally just be happy with a firewall between the companies so that Elon wouldn't be able to make changes to the "standard" in a way that benefits Tesla vehicles while causing large burdens for other manufacturers.

That would probably be the absolute bare minimum to keep DOJ off their backs. I wouldn't trust it to last though, especially not with Elon involved in even a single part of either company. Hence my additional design for divestment of controlling ownership and board seats.

 

[COdogman]

Fake airpids are also for sale everywhere. What does it prove?

It proves that even though Apple certifies accessories, they don’t have total control over what’s available. Most people buy the cheaper but highly rated lightning cables on Amazon, not the MFi rated cables.

 

[DuoRivians]

That would probably be the absolute bare minimum to keep DOJ off their backs. I wouldn't trust it to last though, especially not with Elon involved in even a single part of either company. Hence my additional design for divestment of controlling ownership and board seats.

There should also be absolutely unambiguous language around any and all ip surrounding the use of NACS, whether for charging, v2*, etc is exempt from the “good faith” clause that applies to Tesla IP

 

[rbr19870445]

Because they are too cheap to make money off of. That's why.

Why do you think Saturn/GM killed off the EV1?

too cheap? The Chevy Equinox is going to be around the same price. I just figured the smart decision would be to ramp down production while their “ultium” line ramps up. The Bolt is still selling relatively well but what do I know when it comes to running a massive business.

And I always thought the Saturn/GM EV1 was a half assed attempt at building an EV. The battery tech was definitely not there at the time.

 

[rbr19870445]

It is not using their new battery platform.

AND bad PR stigma for fires.

I get that GM is all in on their “Ultium” line but just figured they would ramp down production why their other EVs ramp up.

and despite all the bad press, the Bolt is still selling well.

i personally don’t like GM so whatever

 

[SANZC02]

So all GM and Ford dealerships will becoming public charging spots for all NACS equipped vehicles as they build out their network. Now if Rivian jumped on board and offered NACS connectors the network of charging just gets bigger for everyone. This will speed adoption of EV’s of all brands and Tesla to grow the NACS network together.

I have a CCS connector I carry in my Tesla that I can use to charge at the CCS networks. So I can easily charge on those high speeds as well.

Rivian!!! Hurry up and adopt the NACS and improve your product!!!! Adapters are readily available to charge a Rivian on CCS if it was NACS if equipped. Adapters to charge a current CCS Rivian on a DC NACS network not so much…

Rivian you are going to get so far left behind by sticking with a CCS connector on your vehicles.

The Tesla CCS adapter only works on Teslas newer than some point in 2020. If you have an earlier model you need to pay for a module upgrade to get it to work. I think it is around $450 to get it converted. I would pay that for the Rivian if available but no plans to convert the Model S.

 

[scottf200]

I get that GM is all in on their “Ultium” line but just figured they would ramp down production why their other EVs ramp up.
and despite all the bad press, the Bolt is still selling well.

I think it only sold well because of the price point. They had a 'fire' sale.

"As America's cheapest EV following significant price cuts, U.S. sales of the Chevy Bolt were up more than 50% last year and the automaker said it would make a record 70,000 units in 2023"

 

[Zoidz]

I probably have a different perspective from many here, because my Rivian will be my first EV, and I have rented a Tesla from Hertz exactly one time - last week - in Atlanta. So here's a few random, perhaps disjoint observations from an EV noob:

- It's the Wild West of the 1800s and it's impossible to predict where this is going to go. ?

- We can guess but nobody really knows WHY Elon is doing this - altruism to the industry, greed expecting future revenue, or ego ("Hey Ford, GM, everyone, I've got the biggest ................. charging network.")

- EV growth is going to continue to outstrip Tesla's charging capacity, and they will not be able to expand quickly enough to keep up. Properly run, the other charging networks can compete.

- There are tons of areas that don't have Tesla Superchargers. In my area, in a 20 mile radius, there are TWO Tesla SuperCharger stations (8 plugs each) vs TWENTY FIVE non-Tesla Stations.

- Tesla owners are going to be pissed when this kicks in. From my VERY limited experience in Atlanta, the two Superchargers I went to were 70-80% occupied. What's going to happen when the flood gate of Ford and GM open?

- I have not seen any discussion regarding pricing as a method of managing who uses what chargers. Does Tesla implement "surge pricing" for non-Tesla users at peak usage times, etc. to give preference to Tesla owners? I think pricing is going to be a big factor in this battle, especially if non-Tesla networks can offer lower rates.

- I expect this to have minimal impact on me. My EV use case has me charging at my primary or vacation homes 99% of the time.

 

[scottf200]

I think everyone is getting excited about the Tesla Super Charging network and what you all aren't considering is that Tesla is already struggling to meet demand of their EXISTING network for Tesla vehicles.

Tesla is delivering 422,000 vehicles a quarter (last quarter). There are roughly 2.65M Teslas on the road all competing for about 17,000 chargers.

What do you think is going to happen if you flood those chargers with other brands?

I'm sorry but you are completely lost on these points.

There are only specific areas where the Tesla Superchargers are busy regularly. Tesla had data on all this and are adding more when they are too busy.

I've been to many (100s of Tesla Superchargers) and 97% of them have multiple stalls open. It is really on the West and East coast near bigger cities where they are busy. Again Tesla has this data and then acts.

I was recently in Naples FL and this was the scenario. Know what Tesla is adding two new Superchargers there. One is 12 stalls and the other is 16 stalls.

 

[Longreach]

No one can trust Tesla, and even if they could, no one should be in a spot to have to. Exactly.

It’s the entire premise of open standards. The fact that Tesla fanboys casually overlook this, says more about their fiefdom than anything

It’s clear you don’t understand how standards organizations work.

The NACS connector IP is offered under the same FRAND conditions as the Yazaki and Mennekes connector IP that underpins CCS-1/2. Licensing is assured as part of adoption, including for adopted functionality evolutions. Further, adoption of connector standards by no means dictates charging network ownership. They are unrelated.

If your creativity allows, let’s fast forward 5-8 years to see what is the likely scenario we will experience:

1) All new EVs come equipped with the easy to use NACS connector
2) Multiple NACS plug equipped charging networks exist, including:
A) Manufacturer curated networks, like the Supercharger network
B) Independent networks run by 1 or more players like EA, EVGo,… , likely the result of existing player consolidation
C) En Route funded DCFC networks, subsidized by commercial locations where you might spend some money whilst charging; Examples include Buckees, Flying J, Loves, Walmart,….
D) Many Level 2 convenience chargers set up by various SMEs, municipalities and others who see some client benefits
3) Home chargers with an NACS connector, or in some cases a J1772 AC only adapter if you have an old charger

Many of these network models already exist and will continue to grow as they migrate to NACS connectors.

Your fears are emotional and unfounded.

 

[izgoy]

- I have not seen any discussion regarding pricing as a method of managing who uses what chargers. Does Tesla implement "surge pricing" for non-Tesla users at peak usage times, etc. to give preference to Tesla owners? I think pricing is going to be a big factor in this battle, especially if non-Tesla networks can offer lower rates.

Tesla tried the magic jack solution in the US, but it was a limited trial. With that solution, the price per kWh charged to non-Tesla EVs was higher than that charged to Tesla EVs at the same time of day or night. The magic lack solution is unlikely to be rolled out further.

The new solution is to certify certain makes/models for direct access to Tesla supercharger via NACS charging ports. With this solution for non-Tesla EVs, the price charged per kW to these certified makes/models will be the same as the rate charged to Teslas.

 

[SASSquatch]

I'm sorry but you are completely lost on these points.

There are only specific areas where the Tesla Superchargers are busy regularly. Tesla had data on all this and are adding more when they are too busy.

I've been to many (100s of Tesla Superchargers) and 97% of them have multiple stalls open. It is really on the West and East coast near bigger cities where they are busy. Again Tesla has this data and then acts.

I was recently in Naples FL and this was the scenario. Know what Tesla is adding two new Superchargers there. One is 12 stalls and the other is 16 stalls.

I’m sorry but the numbers don’t lie. There are orders of magnitude more Tesla vehicles than Tessa superchargers. You conveniently indicate that the highest population density areas of the country are were existing chargers struggle with demand.

What is your point?

What will happen to those locations, which are where most of the EVs are in the US, when everyone and there Chevy Bolt can charge there?

 

[bd5400]

Allow me to put on my tinfoil hat for a second, and I apologize if this was already mentioned in the thread and I missed it, but someone raised the question of why Tesla would care about cars adopting the connector if they can sell adapters to allow for Supercharger access.

I can't help but wonder if Tesla is looking to scale back Supercharger deployment. I do not know the economics of DCFC infrastructure, but I've seen it repeatedly said that the charging is low margin, especially compared to producing cars. Maybe Tesla isn't interested in continuing to grow the Supercharger network at the pace it has been going. They certainly wouldn't want to scale back now, and then lose ground to CCS charging availability over time. By getting everyone to adopt NACS, they push other charging providers to do the same. They can then guarantee that their own vehicle customers will have access to easy charging even if they stop or limit buildout of the Supercharger network.

Hopefully that isn't the case, because while the plug is nicer ultimately the reliability of the Supercharger network is the real game changer. There's no guarantee that other charging providers will replicate the same reliability by implementing NACS.

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