POLL: Would you like Rivian to adopt NACS Tesla charging standard?

[DuoRivians]

From a purely ease and usability standpoint the NACS connector is way better than the clunky CCS connector.

There are a lot of assumptions going on in this thread. Let's assume this, Ford and GM wouldn't be stupid enough to sign away and give Tesla full control on the NACS connector. I'm sure there were plenty of stipulations and future promises in their agreements. I'm also assuming that Ford and Chevy agreed to this with the expectation that Elon is going to finally take the U.S. government's hefty offer to open up his charger network. All assumptions. Tesla is getting so much money I'm sure they can lengthen the cables on their chargers.

Also, the CCS connector was conceived by the SAE and they didn't ask you all for your opinion either, yet we all gladly accepted their cumbersome plug. A plug designed by engineers who didn't pay much attention to human factors and usability, and as engineers do, only paid attention to specs and numbers on paper.

Man, way to give a huge benefit of doubt assumptions to Ford and GM. And throw engineers as a class under the bus. Engineers, in my experience, are some of the most thoughtful people around, including considering the human element.

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[Dirtcom_AJ]

Man, way to give a huge benefit of doubt assumptions to Ford and GM. And throw engineers as a class under the bus. Engineers, in my experience, are some of the most thoughtful people around, including considering the human element.

Sorry if it came off that way. In no way am I throwing engineers as a class under the bus. Engineers bring ideas to reality, they make things work, and make things safe. I am simply stating that there is typically a completely separate department in automotive design that deals with human usability and function.

Quick example, the user interface on your Rivian screen was an idea that came to reality because of engineers work in component design and manufacturing. However, the actual user interaction, flow, and menu options were not conceived by engineers. It was conceived by industrial designers who are more in tune to what "normal" people want. The difference with engineers is they are generally excellent in math and physics but they might not connect with what normal people want lol. It's like windows vs apple user interface. CCS connector is clunky and hard to use. I shouldn't need 2 hands to plug a cable in. I hope that makes my point more clear.

Edit: I should add this is a generalization of how most big companies work who compartmentalize skills for efficiency and separate them into different departments. Obviously there are tons of standout engineers (including RJ) who do plenty more than just crunch numbers, but that's why he's the CEO of Rivian.

 

[Surferdude]

I voted NACS because I feel it's by and large the front-runner in becoming the standard (if there ever will be one). So I'll support anything that will provide a future where ALL chargers work with ALL EVs.

 

[SeaGeo]

Let's assume this, Ford and GM wouldn't be stupid enough to sign away and give Tesla full control on the NACS connector.

GM saves $400M by not investing more money in EVGO. There's the payoff. If they had gotten any control out of Tesla, I think they would have announced it.

 

[DuoRivians]

I voted NACS because I feel it's by and large the front-runner in becoming the standard (if there ever will be one). So I'll support anything that will provide a future where ALL chargers work with ALL EVs.

CCS actually works with all EVs *today*, including Teslas.

Tesla sells a $175 adapter to convert ccs to their plug. And Tesla didn’t need to ask for permission from anyone, because ccs is a true open standard and not owned by anyone

 

[Joel]

I do think that 3rd party companies will add a NACS connector and that this will be a good thing for enabling EV adoption.

The issue is that Tesla will have a monopoly on NACS, despite this. They created the standard, they have control over nearly 100% of NACS charging infrastructure, and they will be in a position to control the user experience to levels that 3rd parties likely can't because they are so far behind the curve.

The question isn't whether we should support NACS ports on charging infrastructure - the answer to that should be a resounding yes - but rather, do we want a private, for profit entity like Tesla who has a dog in the fight (Tesla) to have such a dominant position in influencing/controlling charging infrastructure?

I believe the answer to that is a resounding "no." Tesla has an immediate conflict of interest because they are a competitor to every other OEM that would potentially use a NACS charger. It gives them an effective monopoly and the ability to influence user experience, innovation, and charging rates in a way that I believe is anticompetitive.

3rd party charging companies using CCS currently, don't have a dog in the fight. They don't care if you own a Mercedes or a Chevy because CCS is an open standard.

Tesla, however, does care. You will pay a higher rate as a non-Tesla customer because Tesla needs to earn a profit. They also need to incentivize buying a Tesla over all competing OEM EVs. If they open their network, which is one of their strongest selling points, they have to find a way to incentivize people to buy Tesla over another OEM. If they control the charging network, they can make sure Tesla owners have the best experience.

They have too much leverage, too high a conflict of interest, and we need an open, free market solution.

If the result of making a profit is more charging locations and more reliable as well, then I would vote for that option. Especially over anything government. These days government takes too long, cost way more than it should.

 

[DuoRivians]

If the result of making a profit is more charging locations and more reliable as well, then I would vote for that option. Especially over anything government. These days government takes too long, cost way more than it should.

So, you would have been okay with Standard Oil and John Rockefeller being what they were? After all, monopoly is an epitome of profits, especially over anything govt.

 

[Joel]

CCS actually works with all EVs *today*, including Teslas.

Tesla sells a $175 adapter to convert ccs to their plug. And Tesla didn’t need to ask for permission from anyone, because ccs is a true open standard and not owned by anyone

Just because it works doesn’t mean it is good.

 

[DuoRivians]

Just because it works doesn’t mean it is good.

Same could be said with NACS.

Superchargers work, yes. But, they could work well and “good” with CCS too. Super chargers in Europe is a prime example.

The only common theme I get from you is “praise anything Tesla.”

 

[Joel]

Same could be said with NACS.

Superchargers work, yes. But, they could work well and “good” with CCS too. Super chargers in Europe is a prime example.

The only common theme I get from you is “praise anything Tesla.”

That is not the case. Below is all my opinion.

I think Tesla for making cars for as long as the have are still very inconsistent in fit and finish. Some are just terrible. No one should have to inspect a car like you do a Tesla before taking delivery. I do think what they are doing in pushing an industry forward is great. They are too much electronic with the necessary physical items to make it safer. They have sold an autonomous system and have yet to deliver while charging for a hope and dream. There are plenty of others. I think some of that is also due to the fact that Elon is an innovator and they push and over promise at times among other things.

 

[Dirtcom_AJ]

If we look at the history of the standardization of 120v standard wall plugs (NEMA 1-15) it looks like a similar situation is happening here. Harvey Hubbell patented the familiar design in 1912, but it wasn't until 1940s the country's largest manufacturers came together to finally standardize the common household wall plug.

Look up the Phoebus Cartel. Veritasium has a great YouTube video on it. In 1925 the world's largest manufacturers of light bulbs got together and agreed on standardization. One of the secret standards was a maximum life span of 1,000 hours for light bulbs. Best for profits and manufacturing but not best for the consumer.

Whether you like it or not, history shows that major manufacturers get together and decide. It seems like they have the most pull. In the USA it looks like they have already decided. What they have agreed to behind closed doors doesn't always get revealed to the consumer. At least not right away.

Ford ,GM, and our own government is pushing for NACS so I am going to assume that NACS has won.

SAE CCS is a global standard, but I think they lost out on this one... so I guess we'll keep using inches over centimeters. ????

 

[Yossarian]

I voted "Undecided", because quite simply, I am agnostic on the question. All I want is to be able to do is to charge my EV at as many places, and with as little fuss, as possible. If using an NACS plug allows that, fine; if it's a CCS plug, that too is OK. What I don't want is be stuck with something that only allows me to use a part of the charging network for the life of the EV.

I don't presently own an EV - when my Rivian is delivered, it will be my first - and have never charged an EV at a public facility. I have no familiarity with either plug, and readily accept that the CCS is cumbersome and often difficult to use, and that NACS plug is easier to handle and may even, under the right conditions, provide folks with a charging experience just short of nirvana.

I'll apologize in advance if this seems insensitive to anyone who may have difficulty with the CCS plug, but I really don't care all that much about ease of use. Though I'd prefer to have just one type of plug & receptacle, I don't think having to use an adapter is all that big a deal either. What's far more important to me is being able to charge reliably and quickly at as many charging stations in North America as possible.

 

[mkhuffman]

It looks like Tesla really has opened the standard to everyone, including competitive DCFC equipment manufacturers. So those of you who were complaining that you would be stuck with a monopoly SC network are simply wrong.

On the surface it looks like Tesla is giving away one of their biggest competitive advantages. Musk has always said his objective is to expand the use of BEVs, and he has said more competition is better. Well, he is putting his money where his mouth is. It will be interesting to see if this move helps or hurts Tesla in the long run.

https://electrek.co/2023/06/09/tesla-nacs-domino-ev-charging-companies-adopting-standard/

 

[HeresRonnie]

I guess i'm in the minority of people who don't really have an opinion. I charge at home 90% of the time and when I need to charge when i'm out EA and Chargepoint have been great options. I also own a Tesla and the times i've had to queue for a supercharger are more frequent than any time i've gone to a EA charger. Unless Tesla is rolling out a massive amount of new chargers, more people on the already crowded network is going to push people to other chargers such as EA or Evgo etc. The move to NACS is not some make or break for me, I bought my truck knowing the RAN would take years to build out but also understanding my charging situation. I bought a Tesla when there were less than 100 superchargers. I think people should just be patience and let Rivian grow and develop .

 

[manitou202]

Your second point is a good one. Just adding Tesla connectors to all the EA stations will not solve that problem. And everyone clamoring to use only Tesla made stations will create new problems.

This point is what many are failing to realize. EA switching to NACS doesn't solve their reliability problems.

And if Tesla were to open up all of their chargers to any EV by means of an adapter tomorrow, it would be a $hit show. Half the stalls would be blocked because of the short cables and Tesla specific spacing, many 800V EVs would charge slower on Tesla units (Ioniq, Taycan, Lucid, etc), and a bunch of slow charging EVs like Bolts and Niros would be hogging Tesla chargers.

There is also a decent chance they would run into some compatibility problems. I doubt Tesla has tested all competitor EVs on their network to see if there are issues. A decent percentage of charging issues on CCS today are the vehicle, not the charger. This may get worse on a charging standard not fully tested with a variety of EVs.

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