v-Lockers. Let's poke a dead horse.

[crashmtb]

Hyundai reinvented a kinder gentler tank turn.

Not impressive at all. Hyundai owns Boston dynamics. Their cars should have legs

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[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Not impressive at all. Hyundai owns Boston dynamics. Their cars should have legs

And hip hop dance

 

[Visket]

More complexity. More failure points. Especially for vehicles that may get driven on challenging and remote trails. Rivian’s tie-rods are already suspect for some, imagine what this could mean to durability of suspension and driveshafts.

I've been wondering if the tie-rod issue is exacerbated by turning the wheel against it's will while at a standstill. Bad Ju-ju doing that no matter the vehicle.

 

[R.I.P.]

And as far as novice or inexperienced drivers - meh. Get a Prius.

LMAO... Get a Prius or an R1. The R1 is NOT a capable off-roader, especially the quad variant.

No serious off-roader has brought even a modified R1 to the King of Hammers, or any other legit off-road competition for a reason.

That reason is not because they are "inexperienced"... I assure you.

 

[Visket]

LMAO... Get a Prius or an R1. The R1 is NOT a capable off-roader, especially the quad variant.

No serious off-roader has brought even a modified R1 to the King of Hammers, or any other legit off-road competition for a reason.

That reason is not because they are "inexperienced"... I assure you.

I guess if you dismiss the Trans America Trail, the Rebelle Rally, and the Chile (that's a country in South America) to USA trail, you might have a point. But those are hard to dismiss.

The R1T has proven as, and more, capable than a Jeep Gladiator Mohave, and with a software update (i.e. v-lockers), will put a Gladiator Rubicon on notice.

Not bad off-road chops, methinks. What do youthinks?

 

[R.I.P.]

I guess if you dismiss the Trans America Trail, the Rebelle Rally, and the Chile (that's a country in South America) to USA trail, you might have a point. But those are hard to dismiss.

The R1T has proven as, and more, capable than a Jeep Gladiator Mohave, and with a software update (i.e. v-lockers), will put a Gladiator Rubicon on notice.

Not bad off-road chops, methinks. What do youthinks?

Me thinks I actually worked the Rebel Rally this past year. It was cute... But seriously? You're aware of what that rally is, right?

For the rest, well, I spend more time over landing and off-roading than most do at the regular job (i.e. 40hrs/wk). I am on my 2nd R1, and a few others also have Rivian's as pleasure/ support vehicles. We did get an R1S across the Rubicon trail, but omg... What a nightmare. It is a herkey jerky mess, It flails haplessly, and once crossed up, can't get out of stall to pull itself over an obstacle. It made it, but it sucked, and comparing it to running the same trail in a Jeep with lockers... well... just tells me that you haven't tried lol.

The Enduro fixes a lot of the problems, and doesn't have the stall/traction issues the QM has. The DM is as capable as any other pickup with good traction control, but it would still benefit greatly from just putting a locker in it.

Rivian is telling us they are well aware of the issues we have presented, and that a fully locked R1 will be available at some point.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

No serious off-roader has brought even a modified R1 to the King of Hammers

Just how many mods are available for the R1 to make it KOH-ready? None. There are only two lift kits I know of. DCE's is not for sale yet and details are scant. The other is that homegrown one made by an overly optimistic moron in FL. If you literally mean having a modified R1 at KOH event, pretty sure DCE was there.

If purpose-built competition machines is your definition of "serious off-roader" then neither is a showroom stock Jeep Rubicon. Both the Rubicon and R1 are off-road capable, up to a point. That point depends inherent mechanical limitation of the vehicle and the respective owner's appetite for damage. Most owners here are probably not too keen on latter (neither are pristine Rubicons I see on the road).

Where the R1 sets itself apart from the Rubicon is that it is much better on pavement, which is probably where both spends 80~90% of their service life.

 

[R.I.P.]

Where the R1 sets itself apart from the Rubicon is that it is much better on pavement, which is probably where both spends 80~90% of their service life.

That, sir, is a fact!
??

A bone stock Jeep with lockers is a far better trail vehicle, but if you took my R1 away from me and made me do the Mexico to Oregon run in the Jeep, I would be a very cranky man!

 

[SeaGeo]

Rivian is telling us they are well aware of the issues we have presented, and that a fully locked R1 will be available at some point

I'm guessing dual was kept open for performance comparison reasons and we will see this rectified with the in-house quad.

 

[Visket]

Edit - removed a bunch of QUOTES

Me thinks I actually worked the Rebel Rally this past year. It was cute... But seriously? You're aware of what that rally is, right?

For the rest, well, I spend more time over landing and off-roading than most do at the regular job (i.e. 40hrs/wk). I am on my 2nd R1, and a few others also have Rivian's as pleasure/ support vehicles. We did get an R1S across the Rubicon trail, but omg... What a nightmare. It is a herkey jerky mess, It flails haplessly, and once crossed up, can't get out of stall to pull itself over an obstacle. It made it, but it sucked, and comparing it to running the same trail in a Jeep with lockers... well... just tells me that you haven't tried lol.

The Enduro fixes a lot of the problems, and doesn't have the stall/traction issues the QM has. The DM is as capable as any other pickup with good traction control, but it would still benefit greatly from just putting a locker in it.

Rivian is telling us they are well aware of the issues we have presented, and that a fully locked R1 will be available at some point.

So I'll respond to a couple of your points, but I have a serious/important question at the end of this reply.

Rebelle Rally: Team Rivian (congrats Macaruso/Anderson!) pulled out the win on the last day - at Glamis Dunes - deep sand, against arguably the best driver on the circuit - Nena Barlow in her Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe. Read into that however you want. Vehicle capabilities *do* matter in the rally - and the vehicles compare apples-to-apples (only near-stock allowed).

Thanks for reminding us that a (near) stock R1S crossed the Rubicon. I have taken my modified Jeep TJ there, and envisioning a stock SUV making that trail is mind boggling. Congrats Rivian.

We are not comparing the capabilities of an R1 to a Jeep with lockers - you are. I am redoubtably confident that my TJ is better in technical obstacles then my R1T. Shorter, taller, skinnier.

I agree that the Enduro motors will be a Big Thing for Rivian. However, without a motor on each wheel, The Magic cannot happen. A QM version of the Enduro motors would rock.

Thanks for pointing out that "just putting a locker on it" would benefit greatly. That's exactly what this thread is all about! We are all on common ground there.

Now the question: You have referred to yourself as "I", "we", and "us". Who are y'all? And more importantly, did Rivian tell you if the "fully locked" means mechanical or v-Lockers? And when?

Thanks!

 

[Zoidz]

I wonder if they could add more ‘poles’ to the wheel speed sensors to get better resolution on when a wheel is slipping? I haven’t seen details on the current implementation.

edit: eg if they only have 4 poles, the wheel needs to rotate as much as 90 degrees to provide the next input to the software.

In theory, they already have much finer resolution to detect wheel spin. If Rivian uses a typical design of ABS, there is a 20 to 50 tooth ring and sensor that is used to detect wheel lockup. That sensor creates a pulse train. Rivian in theory could use that signal to detect wheel spin, or lack thereof, for a locker algorithm.

 

[KootenayEV]

In theory, they already have much finer resolution to detect wheel spin. If Rivian uses a typical design of ABS, there is a 20 to 50 tooth ring and sensor that is used to detect wheel lockup. That sensor creates a pulse train. Rivian in theory could use that signal to detect wheel spin, or lack thereof, for a locker algorithm.

That would still be between 7 to 20 degrees of rotation of the wheel (between 2-5” of tire circumference rotation). Seems that even finer resolution would help them sort out control algo’s better with quads to allow better behaviour crawling and in slipping situations.

But this still wouldn’t address RIP’s point around amount of power/torque you can direct to one wheel - Dual with a locker wins that one.

 

[R.I.P.]

I agree that the Enduro motors will be a Big Thing for Rivian. However, without a motor on each wheel, The Magic cannot happen. A QM version of the Enduro motors would rock.

There is no magic. Not in the QM, not in the Hummer tri-motor, not in the Tesla Tri. Deleting the differential handicaps a vehicle for serious off-roading. Anybody that does not know this has not spent the time behind the wheel I have trying to get these beasts to behave on low traction surfaces.

These inexperienced drivers took a T and pitted it against a really pretty lame stock Colorado. The Chevy does not even have real lockers in it, but still makes the T look silly on a really very small obstacle:



After some extensive testing in 2022, we approached Rivian techs with the following problems:
-Badly herky-jerky over low-speed obstacles
-slipping wheels are always starting/stopping trying, often vainly to "find" the traction.
-No ability to spin-up any usable wheel-speed when needed
-Torque-stall any time two corners are lifted
-Non-existent lateral locking on slippery surfaces
-Overly fragile suspension when coupled with the vehicle weight

Their response? "We are aware, we will be putting a differential back in a version of the vehicles for those that need them (this was before the Enduro was announced).

Indeed, the Enduro turned out to be _much_ better off-road than my QM was; so I bought one.

This is not "speculation", this is thousands of hours behind the wheel of both variants, so I find arguments from people without similar experience pretty uncompelling.

But as the title says, this is a dead horse, so I simply am not going to argue with those that have not done it.

I am part owner of an off-road park/school in Southern Oregon. There has been an open invitation for a year and a half to come try the obstacles for yourself.

Conversely, hook up with a local jeep/offroading club and go show them how superior your quad is (that is always fun for us real off-roaders).

Or, beat your dead horse, and read/write posts about how it "could" work.

 

[R.I.P.]

Now the question: You have referred to yourself as "I", "we", and "us". Who are y'all? And more importantly, did Rivian tell you if the "fully locked" means mechanical or v-Lockers? And when?

Who am I (we)?

I made my living in the automotive business. I have been involved in automotive engineering design for going on forty years. Before retiring, I was involved in GM's early EV offerings, and later worked with Fisker.

I am now enjoying my retirement as an automotive enthusiast. Because I still get paid well for designing components that may well be in the vehicle you are driving, I am incredibly fortunate to be able maintain a large stable of vehicles to play with, and i am able to add to that stable at will.

I have driven EVs since the EV1, and have waited too long for a capable off-road EV to be produced (beside the TJ's I converted myself). To date I have bought and flogged the R1T quad, an R1T Enduro, Hummer EV and a Ford Lightning. In addition we have a couple of R1S's and a Hummer EV/S in the circle that we have used and tested. Rivian did the Rubicon after we did BTW, so no, they were not the first across it. They were the first to make a public spectacle of it. For the record, I have also crossed the the Rubicon in my R1T; using the appropriate bypasses for sure (so yeah, technically does not count).

I could fill dozens of more pages with what I have done in the Rivians/Hummers/Lightning, to include large swaths of Baja, but I think you get the idea?

Finally, to their credit, yes; Rivian "picks up the phone" when we call ("we" just means I am not doing all this alone). No, I do not really have inside information from talking to the techs there, but they at least seem to listen to our concerns. There has been frustration, expressed privately, that the QM was an effort to fix a problem that did not exist, and no, it is not working the way they had envisioned/hoped. I get the strong impression that Rivian intends to come back to a more traditional drivetrain design, and the Enduro is the first step in that direction. I see future QM's from Rivian more appropriately marketed; i.e. as an answer for vehicles like the TrackHawk or the CT CyberBeast. Race-bred hellions for the track and people that want the speed.

For us off-road guys? They will return to tried & true controlled diffs.

... but no, I have (disappointingly) no idea of a time table.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Can we just stop arguing and agree that while the R1 is incredible, it is still not quite the pinnacle of automotive supremacy that we would like to think it is? There is always room for improvement. And while conquering KOH would be an impressive feat, how many of us here would rather know that it can do it, more than actually doing it ourselves and bang up our trucks while doing it? To be honest, most owners won't ever venture far past grade 3 or 4 on the Jeep Jamboree rating system.

If not a physical locker, I would at the very least like to see Rivian improve behavior at low speeds. In technical situations, combined with novice experience, the answer is not to give it more beans—to brute force up the obstacle. That could very well cause a chain of unfortunate mistakes. Those operating Rivian-owned vehicles can afford to make mistakes more than we can, because cost of those repairs are not coming out of private pockets.

Their response? "We are aware, we will be putting a differential back in a version of the vehicles for those that need them (this was before the Enduro was announced).

And they did file a patent for a bolt-on differential, maybe around the same time? Could be for a version of R2 or the persistent rumors of a more extreme halo R1. Or, it could be nothing like most patents.

I am part owner of an off-road park/school in Southern Oregon. There has been an open invitation for a year and a half to come try the obstacles for yourself.

Where about in Southern Oregon? name of school? Maybe you guys could run a class just for Rivians so owners know how not to exceed the R1's technical limits.

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