Damn good software architecture as moat

[Fred6v]

After long career in the software biz I gotta believe a significant value add and possible barrier for other competitors is Rivian's software architecture. It ain't perfect but its still pretty awesome. Despite the whining about no carplay it's pretty sophisticated. The OTA strategy is great and I enjoy getting monthly improvements. What the carplay crowd doesn't understand it that Rivian owns it! Every line of code. Anybody whose done business with Apple knows they extract every dollar from licensees. By not having Apple or Google/Android bits under the hood they control their destiny software-wise. But curious to have Ford or GM truck buyers or even Polestar buyers weigh in on this point. I exclude Tesla CT since don't believe it's a viable competitor but it's not the main point.

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[COdogman]

Oh boy. You are going to wake them up talking like that.

 

[racekarl]

I also have had a long career in software and I agree that Rivian's software product and process are both impressive, despite the occasional hiccups.

You have founded your CarPlay argument on sand, though: Apple does not charge vehicle manufacturers to integrate CarPlay and makes no money from it directly.

Nor do I think there is a single person here who wants CarPlay who does not understand the reasons that Rivian resists it.

It's a risky bet on their part though that the potential benefits that may accrue to them from being able to capture a greater share of in-car infotainment revenue will outweigh the hurdle that potential customers must overcome to have their car be less well integrated with the device that is becoming more and more central to their lives.

 

[Fred6v]

I also have had a long career in software and I agree that Rivian's software product and process are both impressive, despite the occasional hiccups.

You have founded your CarPlay argument on sand, though: Apple does not charge vehicle manufacturers to integrate CarPlay and makes no money from it directly.

Nor do I think there is a single person here who wants CarPlay who does not understand the reasons that Rivian resits it.

It's a risky bet on their part though that the potential benefits that may accrue to them from being able to capture a greater share of in-car infotainment revenue will outweigh the hurdle that potential customers must overcome to have their car be less well integrated with the device that is becoming more and more central to their lives.

From what I've read Apple does charge a license fee albeit small "currently", but strategically that allows them under the hood and potential exert more control later. But again, main point is Rivian's stack needs comparison to cohort in Detroit.

 

[JJE]

I don't understand the almost obsessive complaints about Rivian and CarPlay (and Android Auto to a lesser extent). Maybe it is because I am an Android user who mainly uses Spotify. We have Android Auto in my wife's Ioniq 6. The Rivian interface is so superior and intuitive it isn't even close. I have also seen CarPlay in action - it seems very meh to me.

All this kvetching bc people want access to the music they bought on iTunes?

 

[PappaBolt]

It’s been an impressive feat for sure given the frankenstein architecture. I’m in big tech and a former Rivian insider. Controlling your own destiny is expensive but you get to manage your identity. You also risk falling behind if you’re not keeping pace with evolving industry standards and customer expectations.

I’m happy with the pace of updates and incremental innovation, but miss some of the basics that still aren’t there.

 

[JJE]

I would add that the Rivian navigation system has greatly improved over time. It is at least as good as Google Maps most of the time if not as accurate on traffic as Waze.

 

[Dark-Fx]

But curious to have Ford or GM truck buyers or even Polestar buyers weigh in on this point

I was happy to use Android Auto in my 2018 and 2019 GM EVs because what was available in the 2019 built-in was clunky and slow (and non-existent in the 2018). For the Hummer EV, AA wasn't really well integrated and you were better off using the built-in software, if only because the integration with the physical hardware was better. Battery/range estimation mostly, but also because you have to use them for the automatic battery conditioning to work. I tried using AA at first and quickly just went back to using the built-in google maps.

Polestar doesn't offer AA yet on the 2 but they did eventually put Carplay in. I've used it once just to test it out, and realized I'm really not a fan of carplay on such a big screen, it's just not tuned well for it.

The argument really just boils down to "my particular navigation or audio streaming app isn't supported or doesn't work as well". Some people also complain about poor integration for text messaging but that's also something I'm not interested in doing while driving. People want it because they are familiar with the systems, but it's not like it takes more than a few days, weeks at most, of driving to get used to a completely new infotainment system. They are too used to older vehicles like the ones I had my initial experience with AA on.

 

[KRG]

I don't understand the almost obsessive complaints about Rivian and CarPlay (and Android Auto to a lesser extent). Maybe it is because I am an Android user who mainly uses Spotify. We have Android Auto in my wife's Ioniq 6. The Rivian interface is so superior and intuitive it isn't even close. I have also seen CarPlay in action - it seems very meh to me.

All this kvetching bc people want access to the music they bought on iTunes?

Yeah I’m with you. I’m an Apple user and very much an Apple fanboy but I don’t need nor desire CarPlay. I like my car’s UI (as long as it’s robust like Rivian’s is) to feel unique to the car, not an extension of my iPhone. But I also just stream music.

 

[racekarl]

I don't understand the almost obsessive complaints about Rivian and CarPlay (and Android Auto to a lesser extent). Maybe it is because I am an Android user who mainly uses Spotify. We have Android Auto in my wife's Ioniq 6. The Rivian interface is so superior and intuitive it isn't even close. I have also seen CarPlay in action - it seems very meh to me.

All this kvetching bc people want access to the music they bought on iTunes?

I think the main reason is that people's phones are the central "hub" device of their lives now, and want other devices to integrate with it seamlessly. The days of having separate "islands" of personal technology that must be individually managed (e.g. personal computer, home hifi system, in car stereo, etc.) are dying if not already dead.

As an aside, you're right that you don't know what you're missing. Spotify is hot garbage compared to Apple Music.

 

[racekarl]

I like my car’s UI (as long as it’s robust like Rivian’s is) to feel unique to the car, not an extension of my iPhone.

I think the crux of the matter is that this opinion is not universally shared. There are as many people (perhaps a majority at this point if you believe Apple?) who would prefer a more unified experience that allows them to set things up once then carry their preferences across devices, with the phone being the primary interface to all of this.

I'm not saying I am one of those people (I own a Rivian, so I clearly voted with my dollars in their favor) but they are definitely out there.

 

[KRG]

As an aside, you're right that you don't know what you're missing. Spotify is hot garbage compared to Apple Music.

THIS IS TRUE. In my current Tesla, Apple Music is native so it’s a non issue. My biggest gripe with the Rivian UI is no native Apple Music but I’ll just use Bluetooth until they add it, it’s fine. Is that what you do?

 

[KRG]

I think the crux of the matter is that this opinion is not universally shared. There are as many people (perhaps a majority at this point if you believe Apple?) who would prefer a more unified experience that allows them to set things up once then carry their preferences across devices, with the phone being the primary interface to all of this.

I'm not saying I am one of those people (I own a Rivian, so I clearly voted with my dollars in their favor) but they are definitely out there.

Yeah I get it. I just feel like this unified approach is making us lose the uniqueness and identities amongst automakers. At some point Automakers won’t even bother investing in UX because Apple and Google will have lock on like like they do nearly everything else. But most people aren’t car enthusiasts and don’t care.

 

[racekarl]

THIS IS TRUE. In my current Tesla, Apple Music is native so it’s a non issue. My biggest gripe with the Rivian UI is no native Apple Music but I’ll just use Bluetooth until they add it, it’s fine. Is that what you do?

I have an external CarPlay device which I use primarily to make it easier to control Apple Music and also for voice texting. If Rivian gave me those two features I would ditch the additional screen.

 

[AgentOfEntropy]

Yeah, well my 2 biggest gripes about our new R1S are 1. no resume on cruise control (really!?!?!) and 2. no car play. So yes, Rivian has done a nice job, but I'd like to choose what map app to use. Frequently that would be waze, but the nice thing about CarPlay is that it can be nearly anything. Like my radar app can show the weather along the route when we're taking a road trip, etc. And the integration is nice. When I get into my Mach-E, apple maps will typically have my destination pulled up for me. In the rivian, I have to go into the calendar on my phone, click on the address, click "send to my rivian", then click go on the Rivian's screen. Way more of a hassle. And with texts, on the mach-e I get a ding, a little box with who it's from pops up and if I want to I can have siri read it to me / respond. Works great, doesn't require looking away from the road longer than checking the speedo. So if Rivian can beat all of that, then _great_, but let us choose what's better. Having a car play "app" on the rviain screen would be hugely welcome. If you really like their stuff better, great, use it. But I'm not really sure why Rivian should have to compete with google / apple / waze / some kids making the next new thing in their basement. Let them focus on making a great vehicle.

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