Headliner speakers in R1S only work with 3D audio

[Austiopath]

Hi! I have a ‘22 R1S Launch Edition with the Meridian System. Like others, I have never been blown away with the sound quality but not huge issue since I always have kids in the car and rarely bumping. But recently I was wondering if perhaps there were some issues with speaker. I did a bit of experimenting with Spotify and realized that the small speakers in the side headliners are only on when 3D Surround Sound is “on” or “enhanced.” I know a lot of audiophiles on the forum recommend to turn that setting “off” but it’s crazy to me that doing so deactivates a fair amount of speakers in the vehicle. Is this the normal behavior when surround is turned off.
Fade and Balance and Soundstage all in neutral positions.
Thanks!

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[VC_Rivian]

I turned on the 3D audio, and as you mentioned, all the speakers were then working. It sounds better to me, but I am not an audiophile.

 

[sherold]

That is how it is designed to work. An audiophile will probably suggest to leave these off to best replicate the original audio in the vehicles environment but, I enjoy them in the "ON" setting. Enhanced is a little too much extra for me.

 

[TollKeeper]

That is how it is designed to work. An audiophile will probably suggest to leave these off to best replicate the original audio in the vehicles environment but, I enjoy them in the "ON" setting. Enhanced is a little too much extra for me.

Same... and I am a bit, albeit small, of an audiophile.

 

[XLR8R]

Hi! I have a ‘22 R1S Launch Edition with the Meridian System. Like others, I have never been blown away with the sound quality but not huge issue since I always have kids in the car and rarely bumping. But recently I was wondering if perhaps there were some issues with speaker. I did a bit of experimenting with Spotify and realized that the small speakers in the side headliners are only on when 3D Surround Sound is “on” or “enhanced.” I know a lot of audiophiles on the forum recommend to turn that setting “off” but it’s crazy to me that doing so deactivates a fair amount of speakers in the vehicle. Is this the normal behavior when surround is turned off.
Fade and Balance and Soundstage all in neutral positions.
Thanks!

Count yourself blessed that you have the Meridian system. The Rivian system is hot garbage and easily the biggest disappointment I have with the car. And yes, I have read all the posts and tuned my EQ. Drives me absolutely nuts!

 

[COdogman]

Count yourself blessed that you have the Meridian system. The Rivian system is hot garbage and easily the biggest disappointment I have with the car. And yes, I have read all the posts and tuned my EQ. Drives me absolutely nuts!

My R1T has the Meridian system and I’ve been driving a loaner T with the Elevation system for the past 5 days. The first day I would have agreed with you 100%. Using the preset EQ choices sounded much worse to me than my truck’s. Then I adjusted the EQ based on the recommendations here for the R1S w/ Elevation and I don’t think there is all that much difference tbh. The Elevation system is louder, but others here have confirmed the hardware is still Meridian when they start taking things apart.

Obviously just my opinion…

 

[Prime]

Hi! I have a ‘22 R1S Launch Edition with the Meridian System. Like others, I have never been blown away with the sound quality but not huge issue since I always have kids in the car and rarely bumping. But recently I was wondering if perhaps there were some issues with speaker. I did a bit of experimenting with Spotify and realized that the small speakers in the side headliners are only on when 3D Surround Sound is “on” or “enhanced.” I know a lot of audiophiles on the forum recommend to turn that setting “off” but it’s crazy to me that doing so deactivates a fair amount of speakers in the vehicle. Is this the normal behavior when surround is turned off.
Fade and Balance and Soundstage all in neutral positions.
Thanks!

Working as normal. I think those upper speakers are not full range drivers and only operate as extended range for the enhanced audio feature. Otherwise I figure they would operate even when that option is turned off. You might notice when on they don’t sound all that great. I switch between having them off and on depending on the music I’m listening to.

 

[Antonio]

I would pay big money to upgrade the sound system. I’m not a complainer, and I don’t want to complain about this, but I do think they missed the mark with the sound system. I really wish they could come up with a way to upgrade.

 

[kcsly]

enhanced to on, replicate the EQ setting as found in the forum, replace the 6x9 speakers in the door. Will please 90% of the haters.

 

[DADDYSLILGRANDPA]

enhanced to on, replicate the EQ setting as found in the forum, replace the 6x9 speakers in the door. Will please 90% of the haters.

Are there any posts on replacing door 6x9s? I actually have a pair of 6x9 kickers that I pulled out of my 2019 Tacoma that sound awesome. Plug and play maybe?

 

[superfluid]

Former audio engineer here who posted some of the EQ recommendations and analysis on this forum. R1S Elevation and R1T Meridian.

The “headliner” speakers are toggled on and off by the 3D modes. That's by design. We definitely want the ability to turn them off. Here's why.

99%+ of music is recorded and played back in stereo, which means it contains two separate channels of information: Left and Right. When a system has only two speakers, mapping which channel of information goes to which speaker is straightforward: Left to left, Right to right.

However, an audio system with more than two speakers (e.g., a typical car system) has to make decisions about how to split/copy the Left and Right channels of information to other speakers. This process is called "upmixing."

The two biggest factors that influence upmixing decisions are:

1. The bandwidth capability of the other speakers, or the frequency range they can play at what volume before distorting.
2. What the listener should hear when the other speakers play audio back.

Let's break these two factors down with the most basic example of an additional speaker beyond the left and right: the subwoofer.

First, a system with a subwoofer has to decide what information to send to the subwoofer to play back. Generally, it splits off content below 80 Hz from both the Left and Right channels via a crossover and sends the sum to the subwoofer because the subwoofer is much more efficient at playing back low frequencies at higher volumes than your typical left and right speakers. Efficiency has to do with how much air a speaker can move (loudness) at what frequency before it breaks up. Subwoofers move air at lower frequencies more efficiently than tweeters, for example.

Second, we only ask the subwoofer to play frequencies below 80 Hz (even if it can efficiently play back frequencies up to 150-200 Hz) because those frequencies are hard to localize. Our ears and brains don't/can't use differences in volume and phase to determine where low frequencies are coming from in space. If we asked a subwoofer to play back the frequency ranges of a violin or voice (assuming it had the bandwidth capability to do that), we'd notice immediately they were coming from the trunk or under the seat. This is probably not what people want to hear.

All of the above applies to the headliner speakers (or the center speaker, for that matter), but the problem is actually more complicated because all of the frequencies we would send upward are both highly localizable and we can't use a simple crossover to decide what goes into those speakers and what doesn't.

If, for example, we use a crossover to send any frequency above 10 kHz to the headliners, a single cymbal hit that spans 400 Hz to 12 kHz would suddenly sound like multiple cymbals coming from different directions. Worse, it would sound confusing because part of the information—mainly the split "hits" occurring at the same time—tells our brains that they're the same cymbal hit but another part of the information—frequency range—tells our brains they have to be two different cymbals. Our brains get confused and spend energy trying to make sense of what is going on. It's actually quite amazing how much of our world we understand only through our ears...

So if we can't use a simple crossover to decide what content to send upward, then we use Digital Signal Processing, i..e, "3D Mode," to make "smarter" decisions. Engineers design algorithms to selectively choose what parts of the content to cut/copy and send upward based principally on two things:

1. Frequency range.
2. Volume similarity and phase coherence between the Left and Right channels.

Like we said earlier, it doesn't make sense to send low frequencies upward because those speakers can't handle them (they're small), so the DSP sends mid and high frequencies.

Here's an oversimplification of how it decides which "occurrences" of those frequencies to send upward: It uses Fast Fourier Transforms to break down content with complex waves (pretty much all music unless you like listening to pure sine waves) into constituent sine waves. Then it determines how similar the Left and the Right waves are to each other based on volume and phase. The most basic example is a voice recorded on a mono channel microphone and mixed equally between the Left and the Right channels so that the voice sounds like it's coming from dead center even if no speaker exists in the center. When our brain hears sound in the left and right ears that are the same volume and same phase (the constituent frequencies arrive at both ears at the same time), it decides the sound came from either dead in front or behind us (how it determines which is another topic entirely).

When the DSP compares the Left and Right channels to each other and sees that certain content has the same volume in both and the same phase in both (all the waves line up in time), it assumes that it's probably something like a voice or snare or kick drum that the mixing engineer probably doesn't want you to hear from anywhere but dead ahead and that you probably don't want to hear from dead ahead.

If the content differs in volume and/or phase—like a high-hat that's been panned right or room reverb—the DSP might decide to send that upward because it assumes those sounds contribute to us hearing "space" and we don't want to localize it anyway.

It does all this in real time.

The challenge any upmixer like 3D Enhance has is that it can only guess. It has no idea how to differentiate between a snare drum and a voice and a plucked nylon guitar or what any of those things should sound like if they came from overhead or if they were reflecting off a high ceiling and providing a larger sense of spaciousness. It's a lot like trying to convert a 2D photo into 3D so that you can move your head around and see what's behind the person in the foreground: software can do it, but it has to guess and probably won't look convincingly real.

Now to the key question: Should you turn 3D modes on or leave them off?

Answer: If you like them, turn them on.

Hopefully, all this explanation helps you understand what is going on behind the scenes so you can make a more "informed" decision about what you like and dislike. =)

 

[kcsly]

Are there any posts on replacing door 6x9s? I actually have a pair of 6x9 kickers that I pulled out of my 2019 Tacoma that sound awesome. Plug and play maybe?

none that I have seen/read but pretty easy. There are youtube videos out there about how to remove the door cards..same as pretty much any other door card if you have replaced speakers before. The clips below the window are the only ones that will give some problems when you reattach the door card. Stock speakers are junk...plain and simple. need to order universal brackets (i ordered from Sonix electronics (?) which requires some drilling and removing excess plastic. First door took a few hours, by the 4th door only took about an hour start to finish. Need a multimeter to figure out phase of speaker wires. If not handy or familiar with process, easy to justify $200 for installation since the sound is soooo much better. I used Kicker from Crutchfield..$100 pair on sale.

 

[UnsungZero_OldTimeAdMan]

Hi! I have a ‘22 R1S Launch Edition with the Meridian System. Like others, I have never been blown away with the sound quality but not huge issue since I always have kids in the car and rarely bumping. But recently I was wondering if perhaps there were some issues with speaker. I did a bit of experimenting with Spotify and realized that the small speakers in the side headliners are only on when 3D Surround Sound is “on” or “enhanced.” I know a lot of audiophiles on the forum recommend to turn that setting “off” but it’s crazy to me that doing so deactivates a fair amount of speakers in the vehicle. Is this the normal behavior when surround is turned off.
Fade and Balance and Soundstage all in neutral positions.
Thanks!

Not an audiophile or expert. But dabbled in audio when I was younger and more irresponsible with money. Some fundamentals:

• The surround sound in the Rivian is virtual/simulated surround sound. It's not sophisticated encoded surround sound like DTS or Dolby. The sophisticated systems can actually mimic specific concert halls and live music venues.
• 2D vs 3D sound stage, i.e. stereo vs surround. Surround sound uses sound processing and delay to simulate a 3D space, and position of various sound sources (like L/R fader, just with more speakers, to place certain sounds within a 3D space relative to your listening position). For this reason, the overhead speakers are placed where they are, and are only in use when surround is turned on. Next time you sit down in a movie theater, take note of the various speakers. Same idea, but with more sophisticated audio processing and decoding.
• Anyone who say music sounds better in the Rivian with surround on... If that's your preference, OK. But I'm still going to look at you like you've sprouted another head. While the sound stage might sound more spacious, it doesn't sound better or more faithful to the original recording, as the artist intended. Instead of a recording studio, it sounds like an empty gymnasium. Because 3D virtualization is done through additional speakers and slight delay of sound being played through each, it will sound more hollow, echoey and muddy. The difference is most noticeable when you play tracks that were recorded before surround sound was invented or became a fad. Examples: classic rock, classic jazz/blues and classical music. Try it. With surround on and off. Then compare the same tracks on your computer with a solid pair of headphones, L & R channels only. With surround off, the sound is more pure and the drum beats are sharper, more punctual. Everything else is more defined, clean.
• EQ settings. To fine tune each band and achieve a better balanced sound, it's better to attenuate what is overpowering, than to boost what is lacking. If you want vocals to be more pronounced, leave those bands alone and attenuate others. When you boost, you run risk of distortion and clipping sooner, at higher volumes.

 

[SoCal Rob]

Former audio engineer here who posted some of the EQ recommendations and analysis on this forum. R1S Elevation and R1T Meridian.

The “headliner” speakers are toggled on and off by the 3D modes. That's by design. We definitely want the ability to turn them off. Here's why.

99%+ of music is recorded and played back in stereo, which means it contains two separate channels of information: Left and Right. When a system has only two speakers, mapping which channel of information goes to which speaker is straightforward: Left to left, Right to right.

However, an audio system with more than two speakers (e.g., a typical car system) has to make decisions about how to split/copy the Left and Right channels of information to other speakers. This process is called "upmixing."

The two biggest factors that influence upmixing decisions are:

1. The bandwidth capability of the other speakers, or the frequency range they can play at what volume before distorting.
2. What the listener should hear when the other speakers play audio back.

Let's break these two factors down with the most basic example of an additional speaker beyond the left and right: the subwoofer.

First, a system with a subwoofer has to decide what information to send to the subwoofer to play back. Generally, it splits off content below 80 Hz from both the Left and Right channels via a crossover and sends the sum to the subwoofer because the subwoofer is much more efficient at playing back low frequencies at higher volumes than your typical left and right speakers. Efficiency has to do with how much air a speaker can move (loudness) at what frequency before it breaks up. Subwoofers move air at lower frequencies more efficiently than tweeters, for example.

Second, we only ask the subwoofer to play frequencies below 80 Hz (even if it can efficiently play back frequencies up to 150-200 Hz) because those frequencies are hard to localize. Our ears and brains don't/can't use differences in volume and phase to determine where low frequencies are coming from in space. If we asked a subwoofer to play back the frequency ranges of a violin or voice (assuming it had the bandwidth capability to do that), we'd notice immediately they were coming from the trunk or under the seat. This is probably not what people want to hear.

All of the above applies to the headliner speakers (or the center speaker, for that matter), but the problem is actually more complicated because all of the frequencies we would send upward are both highly localizable and we can't use a simple crossover to decide what goes into those speakers and what doesn't.

If, for example, we use a crossover to send any frequency above 10 kHz to the headliners, a single cymbal hit that spans 400 Hz to 12 kHz would suddenly sound like multiple cymbals coming from different directions. Worse, it would sound confusing because part of the information—mainly the split "hits" occurring at the same time—tells our brains that they're the same cymbal hit but another part of the information—frequency range—tells our brains they have to be two different cymbals. Our brains get confused and spend energy trying to make sense of what is going on. It's actually quite amazing how much of our world we understand only through our ears...

So if we can't use a simple crossover to decide what content to send upward, then we use Digital Signal Processing, i..e, "3D Mode," to make "smarter" decisions. Engineers design algorithms to selectively choose what parts of the content to cut/copy and send upward based principally on two things:

1. Frequency range.
2. Volume similarity and phase coherence between the Left and Right channels.

Like we said earlier, it doesn't make sense to send low frequencies upward because those speakers can't handle them (they're small), so the DSP sends mid and high frequencies.

Here's an oversimplification of how it decides which "occurrences" of those frequencies to send upward: It uses Fast Fourier Transforms to break down content with complex waves (pretty much all music unless you like listening to pure sine waves) into constituent sine waves. Then it determines how similar the Left and the Right waves are to each other based on volume and phase. The most basic example is a voice recorded on a mono channel microphone and mixed equally between the Left and the Right channels so that the voice sounds like it's coming from dead center even if no speaker exists in the center. When our brain hears sound in the left and right ears that are the same volume and same phase (the constituent frequencies arrive at both ears at the same time), it decides the sound came from either dead in front or behind us (how it determines which is another topic entirely).

When the DSP compares the Left and Right channels to each other and sees that certain content has the same volume in both and the same phase in both (all the waves line up in time), it assumes that it's probably something like a voice or snare or kick drum that the mixing engineer probably doesn't want you to hear from anywhere but dead ahead and that you probably don't want to hear from dead ahead.

If the content differs in volume and/or phase—like a high-hat that's been panned right or room reverb—the DSP might decide to send that upward because it assumes those sounds contribute to us hearing "space" and we don't want to localize it anyway.

It does all this in real time.

The challenge any upmixer like 3D Enhance has is that it can only guess. It has no idea how to differentiate between a snare drum and a voice and a plucked nylon guitar or what any of those things should sound like if they came from overhead or if they were reflecting off a high ceiling and providing a larger sense of spaciousness. It's a lot like trying to convert a 2D photo into 3D so that you can move your head around and see what's behind the person in the foreground: software can do it, but it has to guess and probably won't look convincingly real.

Now to the key question: Should you turn 3D modes on or leave them off?

Answer: If you like them, turn them on.

Hopefully, all this explanation helps you understand what is going on behind the scenes so you can make a more "informed" decision about what you like and dislike. =)

First, thank you for the detailed explanation and the helpful information regarding the equalizer settings.

Since you’ve probably forgotten more about audio systems than I’ve ever known, I have a question which I don’t recall reading about. If I missed this somewhere else please accept my apology and feel free to redirect me.

My question is: Does the front center speaker truly improve the stereo experience or does it level out the left/right volume at the cost of true stereo separation? My (possibly wrong) understanding is that it is supposed to give each front seat occupant a more level left/right balance by filling in the middle with a mix so you can set the balance at the center and not be overwhelmed by the volume of the side dash speaker which is closer to you. In my simplistic, and likely completely incorrect, view, this is essentially a mix of the left+right.

While I am not a true audiophile, when I listen to stereo music on a surround-capable 5.1 receiver at home I prefer the sound when it is set to simply stereo: left/right/subwoofer on with center & rears off. There doesn’t seem to be a way to do this on the car audio systems I’ve had which include a front center speaker.

Thank you again.

 

[Austiopath]

Thank you @superfluid I went back and read your whole super thread from Feb. one question: has anyone posted recommended EQ settings for the R1S Meridian system? Of course we have the super thread for R1S Elevation system but I haven’t seen anyone do a scientific type measurement on the R1S Meridian. Thanks!

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