Out of Spec 10% Challenge of Gen2 R1T dual Max: Massively Negative!

[SeaGeo]

But even in my garage on a level 2 charger, it takes forever. Then again, I’m so spoiled by my Model Y and it’s fantastic charging…. Smaller battery though? Who knows

The battery is almost twice the size.

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[RivianPVE]

My gen 1 large pack has been very inconsistent and I’m not sure I understand why. When I took my car to Vegas this summer, it was 120 degrees outside and my car charged like a champ (215kw peak rate, derated to 190kw right before 50% then gradual derating after that). I was extremely impressed. Lately, however, it is 65 degrees outside and the car will not charge above 175kw (battery temp 76 degrees at start of charge). It maintains 175kw until 50% but not seeing anything above. I just don’t understand this change in charging behavior.

 

[CharonPDX]

This isn't strictly correct, but you're definitely right that higher voltage architectures usually generate less heat. We're not talking about a linear relationship here, however. Changing to 800V will not fix the charge rate. Cooling and chemistry fixes the charge rate.

The other side of the coin is that the highest amperage nearly any charging station uses is 500A. That's what reaches 220kW on Rivian's 440V-nominal pack. To get anything faster than 200kW would require either higher amperage or higher voltage. Since 500A is a *common* limit (and many other stations top out at 350A or even 200A!) switching to an 800V architecture will allow faster charging at existing stations, even lower kW stations! (There are quite a few "150kW" stations that are 200A limited, which means you're only going to get 150kW on an 800V-architecture vehicle. A 400V will be limited to about _HALF_ the listed power. I've encountered this in my Rivain - a "150kW" station that only provides ~90kW to the Rivian, while a Kia EV6 had no problem reaching 150kW.)

 

[tonys]

I purchased a gen2 max pack and my thoughts so far are.. 1) not bad but not as exciting as the gen1 quad to drive 2) the audio is terrible 3) the driver assist is very below average.. i do have a Tesla with FSD however 4) wind noise from the glass roof I think 5) AC noisy, car steams up not sure why 6)this is more of a me issue as i have prior back surgery/issues.. the seats are way too firm. This last item has me needing to seriously consider the trade for an alternate vehicle.. I am thinking the Sierra Denali or if I can wait the Escalade IQ. Love Rivian as a brand but for 100k vehicle it should have better audio and seats and fit and finish.. also having to wait many months for a service ticket when at delivery you are told to submit a ticket but no mention of it taking many months to get a service appointment.

 

[SPITmadFIRE]

The other side of the coin is that the highest amperage nearly any charging station uses is 500A. That's what reaches 220kW on Rivian's 440V-nominal pack. To get anything faster than 200kW would require either higher amperage or higher voltage.

Yes, but the issue at hand isn't power = volts * amps. The issue at hand is the vehicle not being able to dissipate the heat generated from even just 220kW of charging. This entire thread is about the Max pack not being able to sustain anywhere close to its maximum charge rate under normal conditions.

 

[Mark_AZR1T]

Very interesting video. Everybody is commenting on the charging speeds but I would love to hear more from anyone that has switched from a Gen 1 quad R1T and now has a Gen 2 Dual large... I have a Gen 2 Dual large on order and now debating id I should be getting rid of my Gen 1... Don't really care about the charging speed as I mostly charge at home. But some of the things that concern me from his video are.

-Dual motor making loud banging noise when it switches to front wheel drive
- loud noise outside from the AC compressor
- He mentions how bad the stereo is... Some say there same and others say its good. ( I have the Meridian in my gen 1

I always take these YouTube videos with a grain if salt,... but the more I research about the Gen 2 has me questioning my Gen 2 reservation and getting rid of my Gen 1.

Cheers

As the owner of both a Launch Edition Gen 1 R1T and R1S with minimal issues on either, I find it difficult to justify upgrading to a Gen 2. The only compelling consideration is the cost of ownership once the warranty expires. With my R1T approaching 53,000 miles, this has been on my mind. For now, I’m inclined to stick with the R1T until a truly significant generational leap occurs—one that impacts the entire battery ecosystem. The Gen 2, in my view, doesn’t achieve this.

After spending about 500 miles driving a Gen 2 dual-motor R1T and alternating with my Gen 1, I’ve found that the Gen 2 doesn’t stand out as a superior vehicle overall. Even in terms of ride quality, the improvement is only marginal.

While Kyle may enjoy the sound of his own voice, his content is solid, and his opinions seem well-balanced. I don’t foresee Rivian discontinuing the R1 series. Instead, I believe a genuine transformation in battery technology and vehicle architecture will likely emerge around 2027 or 2028. Until then, I’ll continue to enjoy the impressive performance and reliability of my Gen 1 Rivians.

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

The charging issues have literally nothing to do with 400V vs 800V architecture. Rivian didn't size the cooling system properly and/or design the coolant routing in the pack well and the temperatures during charging get too high and derate long before they should. Kyle's gripe has been that the 53G cells in the Max pack seem to either get hotter more quickly or Rivian opted to neuter the charging curve even more vs the original Large pack with the 50G cells. It's supposedly not even an issue with the average temperature of the pack, it's the hottest region of the pack and the delta to the coolest region. Part of the reason the LFP/Standard pack charges better overall is because they were forced to redesign the pack because of the form factor of the LFP cells and they were able to improve the thermals. Sure, 800V would mean lower current so there should be less heat overall, but there are still major issues with the overall pack design by double-stacking the cells and only cooling between the two in the stack. It creates a big temperature gradient in the pack.

That all said, I have not personally experienced the issues that Kyle has with his truck. I towed a car 500 miles (1000 mi roundtrip) at the end of August / beginning of September, so it was still hot out, and never had a charging session noticeably derate due to thermal performance any more than the truck would have unladen. The charging curve still sucks, but my truck seems to handle thermal derate better than Kyle's truck...and mine is from Feb 2023 where his truck is from early/mid-2022.

I’m going to look into this further. Your correct 800v still requires good thermal management. Rivian will eventually need to engineer a new pack around the 800v system. I believe something was up with the truck he was testing and that this isn’t the typical.

All fair! I have crappy charging on my max as well. Haven’t seen above 100 kw.

That’s not normal my friend. I would schedule service

 

[350Industrial]

While watching the video I played a drinking game. And you can, too!

Just grab your favorite holiday spirit and take a shot each time Kyle says: “I’m going to sit down and talk with the Rivian Engineers about this…”

 

[R1Tom]

Build quality has and continues to be pretty random.

When people think G2 has better build quality or G1 has better build quality....they are reviewing individual vehicles and finding anecdotal differences and come to faulty conclusions.

The only people who really know which has a higher build quality is Rivian who track problems per vehicle.

But....many of us have near perfect G1....

The build quality on mine is near perfect regarding body. Gaps are all great....wind noise is and has been super low....paint is excellent....just generally excellent. I did have some front end noises and almost completely corrected...just one remaining which I believe are the half shafts which still exist in G2.

So when I see reviews saying G2 is built so much better or G1 was built so much better.....I believe a random sample grab of each will create very different results...each time.

 

[ukyank]

But some of the things that concern me from his video are.

-Dual motor making loud banging noise when it switches to front wheel drive
- loud noise outside from the AC compressor
- He mentions how bad the stereo is... Some say there same and others say its good. ( I have the Meridian in my gen 1

For my Gen 2
- notice no noise switching to front wheel drive

- yes. The AC compressor is super loud. First day it was brought home I thought someone left a lawnmower running in our garage

- audio is pretty bad, though I fully expected this. My biggest disappointment is the inability to upgrade it myself.

Also agree that charging is slow, which is exasperated by the inefficient energy usage. Luckily most charging is done at home so I don’t notice, but when the occasion does pop up that I’m charging elsewhere it’s painfully obvious

 

[BCondrey]

The 400V vs 800V charging architecture is not a consideration for me at all. I rarely hit DCFC stations and do almost all my charging at home. I think there are a lot of people with a similar use case. When I do use a DCFC I only charge as much as I need to get to the next stop, which is usually less than 85% SOC. I don't have enough patience for Kyle to watch the entire video and what I've read here and on reddit, I wouldn't agree with most of his complaints anyway.

 

[bobkoch5629]

Wow...Kyle just posted his 10% challenge test of a new Gen2 dual Max truck. Charge curve bad....driver assist didn't work....sound system horrible....heat pump noisy....build quality bad.... I've never heard Kyle struggle harder to find positive things to say.

First, I owned quite a bit of Rivian stocks; therefore, I wanted Rivian to do well. Second, I loved my Gen 1 R1S. Third, I have been watching Kyle for a long time and valued his opinions. I can understand if this was a R2 due to cost cutting but this Gen 2 costed more than the Gen 1 and it is supposed to be better... way better. But...

 

[bobkoch5629]

Wow...Kyle just posted his 10% challenge test of a new Gen2 dual Max truck. Charge curve bad....driver assist didn't work....sound system horrible....heat pump noisy....build quality bad.... I've never heard Kyle struggle harder to find positive things to say.

 

[ThirteenElectrics]

In the end I think we all know that Rivian is not the fastest charging EV around. For that it would need to support 800v.

I had an Audi e-tron 400V. It was a monster at quick charging due to its superior battery cooking system. It could even do an average of 75kw at 80-100% SoC. All told that could cut 15 minutes from worst case charging time. So 800V would be better, but 400V improvements can also be made.

That said I haven't seen any real battery degradation from my Rivians, so that's nice. Tesla was terrible in this respect. The EPA should force them to quote range at 25,000 or 50,000 miles.

 

[Musicjohn]

If you keep power the same and double the voltage, the current will be cut in half, Ohm's law: P(power) = V(voltage) * I(current). Now look at Joule’s Law of Electric Heating, below. Since heat is proportional to the square of current over time it will be much cooler. However, if the power increases and the voltage is held constant, current will increase, Ohm's law again. So each person above is partially correct, depending on how much power the Rivian requests. If the system goes to 800V and the charge rate (power) doubles the heat generated will be roughly the same. If they go 800V and only increase the charge rate by 50% it will stay cooler and be easier to manage thermals, and we will get a overall better charging experience. Of course there are many other complicating factors to consider, I just wanted to keep it simple. I hope this helps.

Joule's law:

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