Federal NEVI EV charger program cancelled

[JRock]

Yep, they found a way to work around the supreme court to give our tax dollars for free. Despite the court that said that congress needed to approve it. But they found the loop hole. This does not make it kosher in my view.

BTW, just for clarity - both parties are doing this, but it does not make it right.

It’s not a loophole, it’s an established program, created by Congress. You remember those folks; the ones with the power of the purse. Changing the law is the appropriate course of action, if you disagree. Calling it a loophole ignores that the program was designed SPECIFICALLY for this purpose.

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[JRock]

And that is fine, I think everyone should have their voice and we can debate this. That how it should work!

As a side note - 50M for condoms in Gaza seems to be a bit extreme for soft diplomacy IMHO

The myth about condoms for Gaza is just that. You’re spreading fake news. It’s a lie.

 

[shap]

It’s not a loophole, it’s an established program, created by Congress. You remember those folks; the ones with the power of the purse. Changing the law is the appropriate course of action, if you disagree. Calling it a loophole ignores that the program was designed SPECIFICALLY for this purpose.

Actually, this program was designed for something else, and the target audience was supposed to be different. But I do agree with you, that they found a "legal" way to do this

 

[shap]

The myth about condoms for Gaza is just that. You’re spreading fake news. It’s a lie.

Just read the documents yourself, it is not a lie. They all published.

 

[shap]

Getting a bit back to the subject of NEVI - the idea was good, but the execution failed. It just did not work after almost 4 years, we have just a few operational stalls out of 4.5 billion appropriated money. And while some projects that are already funded will continue and new stalls will be installed, it just took too much time and too much money.

New networks are coming (IONNA, etc) and I think we do not need tax payer money anymore for this. Actually, I am mostly using Tesla SC which worked 100% time for me, on almost any route (except NM where Francis Energy helped a lot).

 

[SANZC02]

Just read the documents yourself, it is not a lie. They all published.

Technically not a lie, could have been a mistake, ignorance, or deliberate to stir up controversy. The issue is it was not the Middle East, not for Hamas and not all for condoms. It was sent to Mozambique. Gaza in Africa to fight STD and AIDS epidemics.

People can argue about that expense but argue about it from a place of honesty. Keep in mind viruses know no borders so humanity relief has hidden benefits for the world population.

Does not seem to me that less than 1% of the US budget for humanitarian aid is excessive. We spend more than 1% of our budget on charities every year.

 

[shap]

Technically not a lie, could have been a mistake, ignorance, or deliberate to stir up controversy. The issue is it was not the Middle East, not for Hamas and not all for condoms. It was sent to Mozambique. Gaza in Africa to fight STD and AIDS epidemics.

People can argue about that expense but argue about it from a place of honesty. Keep in mind viruses know no borders so humanity relief has hidden benefits for the world population.

Does not seem to me that less than 1% of the US budget for humanitarian aid is excessive. We spend more than 1% of our budget on charities every year.

Maybe. But again, it is a matter of perspective where you want to invest the money. I think we spend too much on things we should not spend and enrich both parties members. BTW, both parties are responsible for the enormous deficit we now have. Both failed missirably.

As for firing 10k employees - Clinton fired more than 377k during his presidency and I think it was actually well received. I am not happy about the fact that people lose jobs of course. That unfortunate.

 

[SANZC02]

Maybe. But again, it is a matter of perspective where you want to invest the money. I think we spend too much on things we should not spend and enrich both parties members. BTW, both parties are responsible for the enormous deficit we now have. Both failed missirably.

As for firing 10k employees - Clinton fired more than 377k during his presidency and I think it was actually well received. I am not happy about the fact that people lose jobs of course. That unfortunate.

I’m not sure we disagree on reduction is needed and things absolutely should be reviewed. I just am not comfortable with the wrecking ball method that was used at Twitter. It is one thing to do that at a private company but the security risk of doing it at the government level could be catastrophic.

I’m also not a fan if removing all of the IGs, not maintains separation of duties, and completely ignoring conflicts of interest and background checks.

 

[shap]

I’m not sure we disagree on reduction is needed and things absolutely should be reviewed. I just am not comfortable with the wrecking ball method that was used at Twitter. It is one thing to do that at a private company but the security risk of doing it at the government level could be catastrophic.

I’m also not a fan if removing all of the IGs, not maintains separation of duties, and completely ignoring conflicts of interest and background checks.

I agree with you - I wish we had a good public entity that would do a transparent audit. Unfortunately, we do not have one. NEVI project is a great example of not advancing the goal and still spending tax $. They could build more than 1,000 operational stalls with 4.5b. Instead, even if all money will result in building stalls as planned, we will see less than 150-200 stalls...
It is our money, you know.

 

[emoore]

I agree with you - I wish we had a good public entity that would do a transparent audit. Unfortunately, we do not have one. NEVI project is a great example of not advancing the goal and still spending tax $. They could build more than 1,000 operational stalls with 4.5b. Instead, even if all money will result in building stalls as planned, we will see less than 150-200 stalls...
It is our money, you know.

Also not true. There are already more than that currently built and planned. And only $500M spent. Not sure where are you are getting your numbers but you are just spreading lies.

 

[shap]

Also not true. There are already more than that currently built and planned. And only $500M spent. Not sure where are you are getting your numbers but you are just spreading lies.

All information is here: https://driveelectric.gov/news

Currently, NEVI 126 stalls are operational: https://driveelectric.gov/news/q4-2024-nevi-quarterly-update

"Now, there are 126 public charging ports in operation across 31 NEVI stations in nine states, resulting in an 83% increase in open NEVI ports since last quarter. A total of 41 states have released at least their first round of solicitations. Of these states, 35 have issued conditional awards or put agreements in place for over 3,560 fast charging ports across more than 890 charging station locations."

also from the same report:
"Since the last quarterly progress update, an additional 12,000 public charging ports have come online, for a total of nearly 204,000 ports in our national charging network—double the number of public chargers since the end of 2020, opening up new roads to EV drivers. You can track progress by checking out our interactive chart, showcasing electric vehicle (EV) charging infrastructure growth."

So when NEVI added 126 stalls after 3.5 years (each site 4-8 stalls on average, nearly half of them already broken, average cost 40% more expensive than Tesla SC), just in Q4/24, 12,000 new stalls were added by the private sector.


Just to add: you are correct, that 126 stalls cost was 500mil (10 times more than what it cost to the private sector). This money was already spent. The rest of the money will either be blocked from spending (new grants) or will continue to be provided for already approved grants.

 

[emoore]

All information is here: https://driveelectric.gov/news

Currently, NEVI 126 stalls are operational: https://driveelectric.gov/news/q4-2024-nevi-quarterly-update

"Now, there are 126 public charging ports in operation across 31 NEVI stations in nine states, resulting in an 83% increase in open NEVI ports since last quarter. A total of 41 states have released at least their first round of solicitations. Of these states, 35 have issued conditional awards or put agreements in place for over 3,560 fast charging ports across more than 890 charging station locations."

also from the same report:
"Since the last quarterly progress update, an additional 12,000 public charging ports have come online, for a total of nearly 204,000 ports in our national charging network—double the number of public chargers since the end of 2020, opening up new roads to EV drivers. You can track progress by checking out our interactive chart, showcasing electric vehicle (EV) charging infrastructure growth."

So when NEVI added 126 stalls after 3.5 years (each site 4-8 stalls on average, nearly half of them already broken, average cost 40% more expensive than Tesla SC), just in Q4/24, 12,000 new stalls were added by the private sector.

Was just going to post that. 890 charging station awarded (some conditionally). Much more than 100-200 that you stated. And I see nowhere that states the 126 stalls cost $4.5B like you stated.

 

[shap]

Was just going to post that. 890 charging station awarded (some conditionally). Much more than 100-200 that you stated. And I see nowhere that states the 126 stalls cost $4.5B like you stated.

Well, the facts are still here:
126 stalls, 500m in tax $. The cost per stall is 10 times more than in the private sector. Many of them are not operational already, and the cost per kWh is more expensive than "free market" chargers (aka SC, EA, etc). All this after 3.5 years. Does it make sense to you to continue spending money on such an inefficient project?

P.S. I indeed was wrong about 4.5bil and 200 stalls - we may see more stalls. But I doubt you will see much more operational stalls after a while ... Current rate - $1b - 250 stalls.

 

[Jonger1150]

Actually I am not sure about that - people buy EV's for many different reasons, saving the planet with a 7500-pound truck - really?

The entire grid is trending cleaner and cleaner. Let's use Michigan and then let's use Quebec.

My vehicle is rated for 352 miles on a full charge. 131 kWh battery.

The average carbon intensity of Michigan generated power is 450g per kWh.

131 X 450 = 58,950g of carbon to drive 352 miles.

A gallon of gasoline is 8,887g of carbon per gallon.

58,950 / 8,887 = 6.63.

My 352 miles of driving emits as much carbon as 6.63 gallons of gasoline

352 / 6.63 = 53 mpg.

My Rivian in Michigan is a Prius @ 53 MPG.

Let's do Quebec.

The average carbon intensity of Quebec generated power is 33g per kWh.

131 X 33 = 4,323g of carbon to drive 352 miles

4323 / 8887 = 0.48

My 352 miles of driving emits as much carbon as 0.48 gallons of gasoline

352 / 0.48 = 733 mpg

My Rivian charged in Quebec Canada averages 733 mpg.

That's the future. That's what this is all about.

 

[shap]

The entire grid is trending cleaner and cleaner. Let's use Michigan and then let's use Quebec.

My vehicle is rated for 352 miles on a full charge. 131 kWh battery.

The average carbon intensity of Michigan generated power is 450g per kWh.

131 X 450 = 58,950g of carbon to drive 352 miles.

A gallon of gasoline is 8,887g of carbon per gallon.

58,950 / 8,887 = 6.63.

My 352 miles of driving emits as much carbon as 6.63 gallons of gasoline

352 / 6.63 = 53 mpg.

My Rivian in Michigan is a Prius @ 53 MPG.

Let's do Quebec.

The average carbon intensity of Quebec generated power is 33g per kWh.

131 X 33 = 4,323g of carbon to drive 352 miles

4323 / 8887 = 0.48

My 352 miles of driving emits as much carbon as 0.48 gallons of gasoline

352 / 0.48 = 733 mpg

My Rivian charged in Quebec Canada averages 733 mpg.

That's the future. That's what this is all about.

You are talking about operational costs. I was taking into account the actual carbon footprint of building the vehicle, and especially large 135KW battery.

Just processing 500,000 pounds of rock to get minerals for Rivian battery using ICE machines - it is a lot of CO2. Taking into consideration that any incident will total the car and then the battery needs to be recycled (there is a footprint for this as well). Also, you probably will not get 352 miles from your car. I have Gen1 QM, and realistically, I am getting 290-300 miles in town.

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