(dumb) idea: "Kinda-Conserve" Mode?

[ElGuano]

I've been running my R1T Trimotor on informal tests between Conserve and All-Purpose, and generally speaking, Conserve makes a significant difference. Driving smoothly and relatively relaxed, mostly highway, Conserve easily hits 2.4-2.7mi/kwh, whereas AP is kind of all over the map, anywhere from 1.6-2.4.

I'd love to stay in Conserve most of the time, and I like that it'll engage the rear motors if you need more punch, but I often don't need punch. What I really want is NOT bald front tires

Would a Conserve-like mode that auto-activates on Driver+ mapped highways (regardless of whether you are using Driver+/CC) be interesting to anyone else? My thinking is during regular driving, it stays on AP, provides the grunt and equalizes tire wear, but when you're on fast, steady highways where you're likely to be going longer distances at consistent speed, that's a good time to auto-disengage the extra motors and max out the efficiency.

As soon as you exit the highway (again, as measured by whether Driver+ is available), it would switch back to AWD/AP.

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[MountainBikeDude]

Wouldn't the vehicle auto disengage the rear motors at cruising speed on the highway regardless of the mode you're in? If you engage conserve, then Driver+ it should stay in conserve the entire time especially at cruising speed.

Same should be true for AP mode, if the power demand is just to maintain highway speeds, it should favor the front motor.

Also, the difference between AP and Conserve on the Tri seems to be less about fully decoupling the rear motors, and just favoring the front motors in more driving situations. AP engaging the rears on say 25% power vs conserve engaging them at 75%?

The biggest problem for Quad owners was not so much the mode destroying tires, but people using it in all situations. Conserve to me, has always been about squeezing out every last electrons efficiency while cruising at a steady highway speed, not driving around town or in stop and go traffic, and that was the primary cause of so many tire sacrifices early on.

 

[ElGuano]

Wouldn't the vehicle auto disengage the rear motors at cruising speed on the highway regardless of the mode you're in? If you engage conserve, then Driver+ it should stay in conserve the entire time especially at cruising speed.

I only have that advanced metrics screen (the swipe left from drive modes) to go by, and I have to say I've never seen the rear motors disengage on the freeway. I'll check again, but it seems all 4 wheels are powered all the time to me, such that when I tap conserve and the graphic shows the power cut, I can actually feel a slight "bump" as the power shifts.

Also, the difference between AP and Conserve on the Tri seems to be less about fully decoupling the rear motors, and just favoring the front motors in more driving situations. AP engaging the rears on say 25% power vs conserve engaging them at 75%?

I don't know a good way to tell what makes the most difference, but what I can say is, freeway driving on the same route over several weeks, Conserve mode is significantly more efficient, as displayed on the driver display carousel, than AP mode.

 

[narmstrong79]

I kind of wish the dual motor had "conserve mode", All-purpose works like conserve mode but I want an All-purpose AWD option, that isn't sport or snow. You would think for UI layout across the models, they would just have kept it that way.

 

[mikehmb]

It is my (likely flawed) understanding that Conserve in the Tri trucks uses the same mechanical clutch as on the quads for the rear motors. I suspect it is the same motors, as the quads but have no data. Someone here should know more and hopefully can point to a video somewhere.

I don't know how Conserve works in the dual motor trucks, but it's automatic, because there isn't (AFAIK) a "Conserve" mode per se. It just ... conserves ... by disconnecting.

Anyone have detail how the rear motor disconnect works (electro-mechanically speaking) in the Duals?

 

[mpshizzle]

Conserve in Tri and AP in Dual are basically the same thing from my understanding.

Tire wear is pretty much a non - issue, because when you get on the power (the situation where tire wear becomes an issue) it engages AWD, regardless.

It only goes to FWD, when you are in low-power situations, where tire wear isn't as much of a concern.

 

[ElGuano]

Conserve in Tri and AP in Dual are basically the same thing from my understanding.

Tire wear is pretty much a non - issue, because when you get on the power (the situation where tire wear becomes an issue) it engages AWD, regardless.

It only goes to FWD, when you are in low-power situations, where tire wear isn't as much of a concern.

If that's the case, I'm making a lot of noise over nothing. I do remember reading that people with Gen2s were still complaining about front tire wear and importance of tire rotations because of it though.

 

[mpshizzle]

It is my (likely flawed) understanding that Conserve in the Tri trucks uses the same mechanical clutch as on the quads for the rear motors.

Are you talking about Gen 1 Quad or Gen 2 Quad?

My understanding is that the clutch system is pretty much identical between Dual Tri, and Quad (Quad is supposed to have an identical rear unit to Tri). They all use electromagnetic clutch disconnects.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

It is my (likely flawed) understanding that Conserve in the Tri trucks uses the same mechanical clutch as on the quads for the rear motors. I suspect it is the same motors, as the quads but have no data. Someone here should know more and hopefully can point to a video somewhere.

I don't know how Conserve works in the dual motor trucks, but it's automatic, because there isn't (AFAIK) a "Conserve" mode per se. It just ... conserves ... by disconnecting.

Anyone have detail how the rear motor disconnect works (electro-mechanically speaking) in the Duals?

The rear motors are very similar to the enduro style clutch, where it's an internal gear interface (don't shoot me for my terminology) that engages magnetically when there is a power demand there etc. The Quad version was an external magnetic clutch that worked differently and didn't engage/disengage like the enduro etc motors do.

Video starts at the disconnect strategy of the two motors.

 

[mpshizzle]

If that's the case, I'm making a lot of noise over nothing. I do remember reading that people with Gen2s were still complaining about front tire wear and importance of tire rotations because of it though.

It may be too early to tell, as Gen 2 owners haven't had a chance to really rack up the miles yet. But I can tell you that on my G2 dual - I leave it in AP with auto ride height all the time. I drive at least 20 mi on the highway (in low suspension mode) daily.

After 9,000 miles so far, the only tire wear related issues I've had are a result of an incorrect alignment from the factory resulting in uneven tire wear between left and right sides. (fortunately they gave me new tires and fixed my alignment). But drive mode/ride height related tire wear doesn't seem to be an issue. Fairly symmetrical front to rear wear in my case.

 

[ElGuano]

I leave it in AP with auto ride height all the time. I drive at least 20 mi on the highway (in low suspension mode) daily.

Does AP mode on the duals automatically cut the rear motor fully (I assume yes, because there isn't a dedicated Conserve mode). I think that may be the difference on the Tri, as I've never seen the rear wheels go offline in AP mode.

 

[mpshizzle]

Does AP mode on the duals automatically cut the rear motor fully (I assume yes, because there isn't a dedicated Conserve mode). I think that may be the difference on the Tri, as I've never seen the rear wheels go offline in AP mode.

That is correct. AP in Dual is the same as Conserve in Tri. AP on tri is AWD all the time

 

[portdirect]

I dont worry too much about tyre wear - as others have stated Conserve in a Tri motor effectively equals AP in a dual, and I've seen no real issues on our dual with front biased tyre wear. I do agree though it would be great if when in Highway Assist there was an option to automatically switch in and out of conserve mode as it is activated/deactivated - as it would really help with range over longer trips. In the very limited miles I've done on our TriMotor my mi/kWh values match OPs.

 

[mikehmb]

Are you talking about Gen 1 Quad or Gen 2 Quad?

My understanding is that the clutch system is pretty much identical between Dual Tri, and Quad (Quad is supposed to have an identical rear unit to Tri). They all use electromagnetic clutch disconnects.

Oh I was referring to Gen 1, which is magnetic disconnect as well but may not be the same mechanism exactly.

The Munroe teardown went into some good detail on it, but it's been a while since I've watched it.

Unsure how the Tri or Gen2 Quad rear clutches work, nor do I understand how the dual rear disconnect operates.

EDIT - thanks @MountainBikeDude for the link and bookmark:

The Gen 1 uses a a dog clutch with those little metal toggle tabs which is externalized from the drive units (and there are by definition two of them), while the DUAL rear unit uses an integrated clutch which is still magnetically actuated, but not a dog clutch (it's a simpler and probably more reliable gear mating system).

This still doesn't answer the Tri-Motor clutch question. If they are using in-house units in the rear (x2) and have done the integration with the new clutch assembly, it should be able to auto-disengage.

BUT - if they are using units similar to gen1 with the dog clutch, then they are still stuck with semi-manual disconnect.

Anyway - this has been an area of interest for me for some time, and I hope to see a Tri-motor rear (or G2 quad) teardown at some point.

 

[mpshizzle]

Oh I was referring to Gen 1, which is magnetic disconnect as well but may not be the same mechanism exactly.

The Munroe teardown went into some good detail on it, but it's been a while since I've watched it.

Unsure how the Tri or Gen2 Quad rear clutches work, nor do I understand how the dual rear disconnect operates.

Unfortunately, I don't know specifics either - all I know is that in my experience with gen 1 quad, the disconnect is fairly abrupt and rough (thus the need for a separate drive mode to choose whether it's connected or not). On dual and gen 2 tri/quad, the disconnect is much faster and smoother to make it nearly imperceptible. (Except for the most recent update on dual motor, but that's a software issue covered on another thread). That's why the newer system has an automatic disconnect, rather than the manual disconnect selected via drive mode

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