First Time EV Buyers: Battery Size and Charging Apprehensions

[Riventures]

EA and other fast charging is great, if you're only going to keep the car for a few years and don't care about the battery life fast charge it all you want.

Longevity wise that battery will lose it's oomf.

I do not have long-term experience, but I am sure you are right. Is there a source for this type of data I can examine? The part that I am not grasping yet is how much of a degradation am I introducing to the battery pack with DC charging.

The manufacturers are warranting the batteries for 8 years, and I have not seen significant exclusions in their warranty, except that the batteries should still have 70% of their new capacity at the end of the period. I don't want to play the legal game certainly, I am just trying to understand how all this actually work.

Congrats on the etron, i was days away from getting one before deciding to wait out the R1T Max Pack for now. It's a beauty, and I'm a huge fan of Audi. I've owned the TT Roadster, A4 Cabriolet, allroad, A5, and SQ5 over the years.

With me not going back into the office still the need for a third vehicle at our house is low, so I'm saving the payments each month to put down on the R1T when it finally gets here. My fallback car if I give up is a toss up between the etron S and etron, sportback. Though my work has tons of free 30A chargers to use while you park at work

Thank you very much.
I am mightily impressed with the Audi and eTron. I have the GT version, it just fits me like a glove. I just had never imagined that I would be riding lower than almost any car on the road, even a VW Golf. The car allows the EV transition for regular drivers very well with the right mix of technology vs. traditional operations.

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[Dbeglor]

The manufacturers are warranting the batteries for 8 years, and I have not seen significant exclusions in their warranty, except that the batteries should still have 70% of their new capacity at the end of the period. I don't want to play the legal game certainly, I am just trying to understand how all this actually work.

I don't think there will be fine print providing an out if you exclusively use DCFC. I think the expectations should be that if you exclusively used DCFC, you might approach that 70% number, whereas if you rarely used it I'd expect to still have over 90% of original capacity over that time/use. There are only two real sources for data on this, Nissan Leaf and Tesla. The Leaf had very poor BMS and thermal cooling, so it suffered a lot of degradation that you shouldn't expect here. Many Tesla's have noted fairly minimal degradation after more than 8 years and that mileage, but YMMV.

Not to further confuse, but it's also worth noting that there is variability in every vehicle that comes off the line. Each has its own unique chemistry and will settle in a capacity that varies slightly around the mean even in the first year.

 

[SeaGeo]

I don't think there will be fine print providing an out if you exclusively use DCFC. I think the expectations should be that if you exclusively used DCFC, you might approach that 70% number, whereas if you rarely used it I'd expect to still have over 90% of original capacity over that time/use. There are only two real sources for data on this, Nissan Leaf and Tesla. The Leaf had very poor BMS and thermal cooling, so it suffered a lot of degradation that you shouldn't expect here. Many Tesla's have noted fairly minimal degradation after more than 8 years and that mileage, but YMMV.

Not to further confuse, but it's also worth noting that there is variability in every vehicle that comes off the line. Each has its own unique chemistry and will settle in a capacity that varies slightly around the mean even in the first year.

Agreed.

There's been a few studies of vehicle data generally showing battery degradation has been in the range that you mentioned. Nissan is the outlier with long term behavior, again as you noted. Rivian has informally communicated that the BMS will manage that response over time if you have to fast charge a lot. Just avoid doing it above 70 or 80% unless it's really needed.

 

[ironpig]

I am mightily impressed with the Audi and eTron. I have the GT version, it just fits me like a glove. I just had never imagined that I would be riding lower than almost any car on the road, even a VW Golf. The car allows the EV transition for regular drivers very well with the right mix of technology vs. traditional operations.

Congrats on your eTron GT! That is a killer car. Switching to an EV lifestyle routine really changes everything.

I highly recommend getting the charger set up at home. I have been plugging my car in almost every night for the last 7 years and I rarely use public charging stations. My Model S gets about 200 miles on an 80% charge these days and I can't remember the last time I even thought about range or worried about needing to charge.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I'm mostly curious how an R1T isn't going to meet your needs or desires but an E-Tron did.

 

[ajdelange]

The part that I am not grasping yet is how much of a degradation am I introducing to the battery pack with DC charging.

Nobody really has that data. It would be a statistical thing anyway. Everyone knows that smoking will shorten your lifespan but no one can tell you by how much. It depends on too many things such as how much you smoke etc.

It is generally known that the easier you go on a battery the longer it will last and that's what we have here. Tesla advises in their manuals to avoid Superchargers to the extent one can. Rivian, in it's manual, advises charging to a lower level to increase battery life. Goal Zero does the same for its Yeti battery packs. Most people can charge at lower than 10 kW at home without any inconvenience. I can't tell you how much doing that will help you but as they say of the famous Jewish penecilin (chicken soup) it can't hurt.

 

[Riventures]

Thank you all for the input, really appreciate it.

I don't intend to exclusively use DCFC of course. An electrician is scheduled to install a 50-amp circuit in 10 days, so I until then I have to use it. So, far it has been really painless, however, I do agree that home charging will minimize DCFC needs, even with the 9.6 kWh charger provided with the car.

I'm mostly curious how an R1T isn't going to meet your needs or desires but an E-Tron did.

For us, it was not a comparison between R1T and eTron. More between it and our Land Cruiser. We already sold one of our LCs, were thinking of replacing the second one with R1T. However, we miss the first one already too much, even though it was 20 years old.

Specific reasons why we chose to cancel our R1T preorder are many, but the top few are:

• Cannot live with the tablet-based interior; I literally hate it. One of the main reasons we have never been interested in a Tesla
• Lack of CarPlay. I thought I could live without it, I tried for a week and I just cannot
• The rear accommodations are insufficient for our family needs, particularly for our large dogs
• As much as I forced myself to like the exterior design, I just could not really warm up to the front end. My wife just hates it

So, now we decided to keep our last LC, which has been beyond what one may call "reliable," and decided to get a sedan, and it turn out to be the Audi.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Cannot live with the tablet-based interior; I literally hate it. One of the main reasons we have never been interested in a Tesla

The Polestar 2 I just got is a lot this way. If you're using carplay on the etron, you're still interacting with the touch screen quite a lot I would think. Looking at the Etron, having HVAC broken out into it's own screen just seems like a waste of space that could be usable for displaying other information. I wouldn't mind having physical switches for HVAC, but another screen doesn't seem like the answer. With it being android automotive, I can ask google to do anything I'm too busy to do with my hands.

I didn't consider the Model 3 because of the lack of driver's display. Etron and Taycan both were cut off my list because of no one-pedal driving. Mach-E because dealers price gouging. IPace because it's a 5 year old design at this point, and they want too much for it.

The loose tablet thing looks pretty dumb but if it were set back into the dash, it would be too far away. And if the dash were closer to the driver it would feel more cramped. I'm torn about the looks because of it.

 

[SlaterGS]

Etron and Taycan both were cut off my list because of no one-pedal driving.

Wait what?
I can't believe they don't have one-pedal driving?!?!

If a car had everything I could ever dream of but no one-pedal driving it would be immediately out of the equation.

 

[ironpig]

Thank you all for the input, really appreciate it.

I don't intend to exclusively use DCFC of course. An electrician is scheduled to install a 50-amp circuit in 10 days, so I until then I have to use it. So, far it has been really painless, however, I do agree that home charging will minimize DCFC needs, even with the 9.6 kWh charger provided with the car.


For us, it was not a comparison between R1T and eTron. More between it and our Land Cruiser. We already sold one of our LCs, were thinking of replacing the second one with R1T. However, we miss the first one already too much, even though it was 20 years old.

Specific reasons why we chose to cancel our R1T preorder are many, but the top few are:

• Cannot live with the tablet-based interior; I literally hate it. One of the main reasons we have never been interested in a Tesla
• Lack of CarPlay. I thought I could live without it, I tried for a week and I just cannot
• The rear accommodations are insufficient for our family needs, particularly for our large dogs
• As much as I forced myself to like the exterior design, I just could not really warm up to the front end. My wife just hates it

So, now we decided to keep our last LC, which has been beyond what one may call "reliable," and decided to get a sedan, and it turn out to be the Audi.

That makes sense. I've always liked Toyotas. I still have a 2015 4Runner and a 1975 land Cruiser.

the 4Runner feels ancient compared to the Tesla or even other modern cars with better tech. But I still love the tactile feel of all the buttons and window switches. And my partner loves that car. She feels safe in it and it has just the right amount of tech for her (not very much). So I'll probably keep it even after we get the Rivian.

 

[Riventures]

The Polestar 2 I just got is a lot this way. If you're using carplay on the etron, you're still interacting with the touch screen quite a lot I would think. Looking at the Etron, having HVAC broken out into it's own screen just seems like a waste of space that could be usable for displaying other information. I wouldn't mind having physical switches for HVAC, but another screen doesn't seem like the answer. With it being android automotive, I can ask google to do anything I'm too busy to do with my hands.

The loose tablet thing looks pretty dumb but if it were set back into the dash, it would be too far away. And if the dash were closer to the driver it would feel more cramped. I'm torn about the looks because of it.

I cannot comment on the last paragraph, I don’t think understand it.

The GT has different cockpit than other eTrons, there is no third screen for HVAC controls, they are physical buttons. Volume control, media channels are physical buttons, cruise control, adaptive parking, lane keeping are too, not to mention mirrors, steering wheel adjustments, wipers, vents, driving dynamics, seat heater/cooler/lumber/massage, etc.

I use voice controls or single taps on screen for most CarPlay functionality, but general vehicle functionality are either under my thumb on the steering wheel or an easy reach single-function button.

I also really like how regen works on the Audi and how seamless it is transitioning to physical breaks, that is a big plus for me.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I cannot comment on the last paragraph, I don’t think understand it.

The GT has different cockpit than other eTrons, there is no third screen for HVAC controls, they are physical buttons. Volume control, media channels are physical buttons, cruise control, adaptive parking, lane keeping are too, not to mention mirrors, steering wheel adjustments, wipers, vents, driving dynamics, seat heater/cooler/lumber/massage, etc.

I use voice controls or single taps on screen for most CarPlay functionality, but general vehicle functionality are either under my thumb on the steering wheel or an easy reach single-function button.

I also really like how regen works on the Audi and how seamless it is transitioning to physical breaks, that is a big plus for me.

I haven't been in a GT so I'm glad that difference exists.

As far as I'm aware, ironically only Tesla gets the actual brake pedal usage wrong because they don't blend it, whereas every other manufacturer has blended braking. Some are more smooth than others but personally I'd rather not use the brake pedal at all unless I need to make an emergency stop and engage the mechanical brakes.

 

[Riventures]

We are different types of drivers it appears. Breaks are critical for me to be able to modulate the attitude of the vehicle, besides to "go pedal."

 

[ajdelange]

As far as I'm aware, ironically only Tesla gets the actual brake pedal usage wrong because they don't blend it, whereas every other manufacturer has blended braking. Some are more smooth than others but personally I'd rather not use the brake pedal at all unless I need to make an emergency stop and engage the mechanical brakes.

Actually Tesla gets it right (though others may too). Tesla does not blend until the very last seconds (i.e. just before an actual stop) thus maximizing the kinetic energy recovered and minimizing that lost to friction braking (any use of friction brake represents energy loss). This implementation also makes one pedal driving reality. In other words you may well do an entire trip without ever touching the brake pedal.

Some will argue ardently that this is a bad thing because their wives aren't used to it or some such and other manufacturers have settings which allow blending in varying degree. This may make some wives more comfortable but Tesla was after max range and their scheme grants that. Apparently Rivian has come to the same conclusion.

 

[ajdelange]

We are different types of drivers it appears. Breaks are critical for me to be able to modulate the attitude of the vehicle, besides to "go pedal."

Yes, breaks are important. I try to plan charging stops at the most 3 hrs apart - more frequently if possible.

Now as for the things that stop vehicles, brakes, they really have no place in the proper operation of a BEV. They waste energy and energy is at a premium in an electric vehicle. They have brakes for when the vehicle must be operated suboptimally to avoid mishap. If you wish to attain full benefit from a BEV you only use them in such situations (a light turns suddenly, some idiot swerves in front of you, a child or dog runs out into the street...). It happens and that's why mechanical brakes are required on all cars

Now, of course, the car belongs to its owner and he can use it in any way he chooses to and need not justify his choice to anyone. If you wish to turn regen off completely (and some do) then go ahead and use the friction brake as you would with an ICE vehicle. But don't expect to realize the EPA rated mileage.

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