Anyone else completely disappointed that MaxPack battery not available until 2023?

[Attesan997]

This kind of proves my point - I guess people just don't comprehend that 315mi of EPA-tested range will almost never be >300mi of actual useable range, even in ideal conditions just due to the fact that you don't want to be charging the battery to 100% frequently for optimal battery health and longevity and even if you could, you dont' want to be running it down to <10%, for both battery health health and more importantly, to leave a little buffer so you don't end up stranded on the side of the road somewhere. Then, you can start throwing in all the other variables that will decrease your range further: driving habits, temperature, weather/wind, road surface, payload, etc.

I'd disagree, plenty of people on this small forum of enthusiasts have used an electric vehicle full time. It just comes down to use case and looking at it from a couple of different ways. From Rivian's side they must have done the research and found where "most" of their prospective buyers for the first couple of years would be satisfied. From the owner side, will an ideal condition range of 300 miles work for their needs? It's not a one size fits all for either Rivian or the owner.

Not trying to diminish your position, I agree more range would be better. Certainly over time with improvements and efficiencies I'm sure more will come. But for my use case it just didn't make sense to spend an extra $10k for range knowing I wouldn't need it for a good 75% of the time. And also paying more just to wait another year.

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[sierraskier]

I'd disagree, plenty of people on this small forum of enthusiasts have used an electric vehicle full time. It just comes down to use case and looking at it from a couple of different ways. From Rivian's side they must have done the research and found where "most" of their prospective buyers for the first couple of years would be satisfied. From the owner side, will an ideal condition range of 300 miles work for their needs? It's not a one size fits all for either Rivian or the owner.

Not trying to diminish your position, I agree more range would be better. Certainly over time with improvements and efficiencies I'm sure more will come. But for my use case it just didn't make sense to spend an extra $10k for range knowing I wouldn't need it for a good 75% of the time. And also paying more just to wait another year.

I'm not arguing what range mileage works for you or doesn't work for you, or whether you see the additional value to justify an additional $10k investment - that's entirely up to you. What I'm pointing out is people are throwing around a 300+ mi range as if that is the normal/common useable range, when in reality it is much less than that 90% of the time.

I also wouldn't assume Rivian has done some extensive research to determine that the Large Pack meets "most" customers needs. If it did then why were they touting a 400+ mi range as necessary for the EV / adventure truck segment for so long? Maybe they haven't got it to work yet, or maybe they can't get subcomponents, or maybe they can't get the cost low enough. There could be a million reasons (excuses), but bottom line is they probably should have figured that out before touting 400+ mi for multiple years.

 

[Attesan997]

I'm not arguing what range mileage works for you or doesn't work for you, or whether you see the additional value to justify an additional $10k investment - that's an entirely up to you. What I'm pointing out is people are throwing around a 300+ mi range as if that is the normal/common useable range, when in reality it is much less than that 90% of the time.

I also wouldn't assume Rivian has done some extensive research to determine that the Large Pack meets "most" customers needs. If it did then why did they tout 400+ mi range for so long? Maybe they haven't got it to work yet, or maybe they can't get subcomponents, or maybe they can't get the cost low enough. There could be a million reasons (excuses), but bottom line is they probably should have figured that out before touting 400+ mi for multiple years.

I don't particularly think anyone is throwing out 300 miles as a certainty of mileage. Hell on the website it even advertises a reduction of 10-15% of that range with the 20"ATs. So I don't beleive any of the Launch editions delivered (that have had pictures on this forum so far) are actually getting 300+ miles on a charge. It just comes down to what you need. I said earlier if you need 300 miles every time you get into a vehicle Rivian's saying they'll have that option available in late 2022.

It makes sense to be frustrated, if I had my heart set on the Max pack I would as well. Personally I don't think its ready to go yet, and they need a bit more time so I'm not as confident in the end of '22.

 

[Jabbahop]

I was and am extremely disappointed. Being in Kentucky, we're already pretty much back-of-the-pack as it is. Even so, I was ready to support Rivian—I've had a Tesla Model S since 2015, and dealt with the growing pains with them. I've been in the process of adding a second wall connector over the break so I can charge both vehicles easily.

My biggest frustration is the uncertainty this brings.

1. There's no guarantee that "2nd half of 2023" (what I got) means we'll see the Max Pack then. It's way too vague for them to feel confident in it. So now I wonder if I'm waiting 2 years or 3 years or more for the vehicle.
2. Right now, it looks like I can get the $7500 tax credit on the vehicle. Since the updated plan doesn't appear to be going to pass this year, that's something I'd rather not give up, since the truck will most likely be above the price limit if it does later.
3. There's no guarantee on pricing. This is true in general, but especially true if we have to wait for another year. I think the odds they'll keep pricing the same is slim at best.
4. I've lost out on certain colors or features in the past by waiting. I really wanted a green Model S, but they dropped that (and the dark blue that was my 2nd choice) by the time I could afford on. Now I want a compass yellow R1T, and I don't know if I can trust they'll still offer that color by the time I get to order my truck. (Heck, they don't seem to have shipped one yet.)

So what do I do? People keep talking about spending $10k for 100miles of range, but in my opinion, the choice is between spending $80k on a vehicle that isn't exactly what you want, or $90k on a vehicle that is. In many ways, if you know you need the max pack, then buying the large pack is effectively throwing away $80k, not saving $10k.

I've owned an EV that only gets 260-270 miles of range for 6 years. A large-pack R1T with the 20" wheels & off-road tires hits, at best, about 270-280 miles. It's not really any further. And the charging infrastructure is far behind the supercharger network I'm used to.

We already have several day trips we simply can't drive to in the Model S, because the charging options just don't make it practical.

I know the 400 mile range version is a better choice for us, but I don't like being forced to choose between getting the vehicle with less range or risking losing out on the above.

Rivian doesn't have control over #2 (they can't control the tax credits), but they can absolutely control the other 3, by guaranteeing pricing and features to preorder holders. If I knew for certain that those would be stable, then I'd feel a lot better about waiting.

Ironically they could solve one of the issues for some Max pack customers like me if they immediately started installing tons of DC fast chargers. That would make owning a largepack truck more usable for those of us going off the beaten path. In some ways it makes more sense for their focus on EV adventure vehicle to ship Max packs first and then large and small packs when their charging infrastructure is in place to allow those smaller battery vehicles to reach places beyond the highway system. I understand the business reason but also see a mismatch between their priorities and charging capabilities in the short term.

 

[Rivian_Hugh_III]

How many really "need" 400 miles of range? 300 miles is a long way. Longer than my bladder can go. EV's still aren't the most practical for long distance travel. If you're someone that travels over 1,000 miles on a regular basis, EV's probably aren't the best option, yet. However, for daily driving needs, 300 miles is way more than most people will ever need. Thus, if you're someone who only travels over 300 miles a couple of times of year, then the inconvenience of having to stop longer to charge over just filling with gas is worth the tradeoff of what you benefit every other day.

Likewise, more range would be better for towing, but again, if you're someone that tows over 500 miles on a very regular basis, again, EV's are still not the most practical for that application. Even the 400 mile battery is likely going to struggle to get 200 miles while towing anything over 5,000 lbs. So in that respect, its only about a 50 mile difference when compared with the Large Pack. I can't imagine too many purchasing and EV truck to use primarily for towing long distances on a daily basis.

I'm one that always wants more range, just because. But honestly, I never have a real need for it. I have the long range Model S. Previously had a 2013 Model S that only had 190 miles in real world highway speeds range. The newer one is rated for 400 miles, but is closer to 270 miles at "keep up with the flow" highway speeds. I find that I still stop at the same places I did with the prior Model S. The only difference being, I save a few minutes on the charge time with the newer car. But, in either case, the time is in the 30 minute range, which is far longer than a 3-4 minute stop for gas. So, adding 5-10 minutes really doesn't make much difference.

It's more psychological than it is practical. Not saying its going to be true for EVERYONE, but for MOST people, a 300 mile range vehicle will serve you just as well as a 400 Mile Range battery. I too originally ordered the 400 mile pack, just because. Then realized it likely would delay delivery by at least a year and changed my configuration a few months ago. If I'm going to drive from California to New York, I wouldn't take either one. Would rent a gas car. I'll do trips that require no more than 1 stop, maybe 2 on the rare occasions. Otherwise, the added time to charge for longer distance travel is just too much of a sacrifice (for me). For the 1 stop trips, happy to sacrifice the time for the year long benefits of EV use. So, point being, for a large majority of you, you won't even notice the difference between having 300 miles or 400 miles. Plug it in each night at home and you have more than enough for daily needs either way. The 300 mile battery is lighter and more efficient than toting around a bunch of extra weight for the 400 mile battery you're never using. Thus, in addition to the $10,000 you save up front, you'll also save with each charge as your wh/mi will be notably higher with the smaller battery.

If that helps anyway. Speaking from experience with EV's over the past 9+ years.

Yeahbut you're not going to get 300 miles of range. When you factor in:

• All Terrain tires: -12.5%
• 60+ mph speed: -10%+
• Rain or snow on road: -20%
• Cold Weather (10*F): -20%+
• HVAC: -10%
• Heat in winter: -15% to -30%
• Standard Driving (80% charge): -20%

Not to mention the possibility of:

• Headwinds
• Excessive acceleration habit
• Battery Age

And you're left with... well let's see:

If you're driving AT tires, on the highway, in the rain or snow, in the winter, with the heat on, and it's a regular drive so you're using the 80% charge number, then your 314 miles of range becomes

(314 * (1-0.125) * (1-0.10) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.2) * (1-0.20)) = 101.28

101.28 miles per charge. And again, that doesn't take into account excessive acceleration, elevation changes, or headwinds. Of course it also doesn't take into account using the "Conserve Mode" which would make sense on long highway drives.

In any case, 300 miles becomes 100 awfully fast. When you're looking at 50 miles of roundtrip distance you might start thinking that the Max Pack makes a certain amount of sense.

 

[Riviot]

101.28 miles per charge

Y'all and your pessimistic maths.

 

[DeafPug]

@Rivian_Hugh_III thank you for multiplying all those percentages together to get your final estimated range. I saw a previous post where the person added the percentages together and it made my brain hurt. I couldn't even bring myself to correct them on their pseudo-math.

Edit: The proper calculation here might actually be increasing the Wh/mile consumption based on the factors and then calculating the the full range from that efficiency, but at least you're doing the correct things with percentages...

 

[AndroidAppBundle]

Legacy auto companies have a chip shortage impacting production. EV brands primary constraint is a battery shortage, followed by chip shortage.

It is not surprising that the brands without battery manufacturing capabilities are fighting over the battery capacity that does exist. Which means Rivian, Ford, etc are all duking it out over the same batteries.

Rivian is a broken record with delays though. That is like....what they are known for at this point. I imagine this is what being a Tesla customer was like....a decade ago

 

[Budman]

Yeahbut you're not going to get 300 miles of range. When you factor in:

• All Terrain tires: -12.5%
• 60+ mph speed: -10%+
• Rain or snow on road: -20%
• Cold Weather (10*F): -20%+
• HVAC: -10%
• Heat in winter: -15% to -30%
• Standard Driving (80% charge): -20%

Not to mention the possibility of:

• Headwinds
• Excessive acceleration habit
• Battery Age

And you're left with... well let's see:

If you're driving AT tires, on the highway, in the rain or snow, in the winter, with the heat on, and it's a regular drive so you're using the 80% charge number, then your 314 miles of range becomes

(314 * (1-0.125) * (1-0.10) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.2) * (1-0.20)) = 101.28

101.28 miles per charge. And again, that doesn't take into account excessive acceleration, elevation changes, or headwinds. Of course it also doesn't take into account using the "Conserve Mode" which would make sense on long highway drives.

In any case, 300 miles becomes 100 awfully fast. When you're looking at 50 miles of roundtrip distance you might start thinking that the Max Pack makes a certain amount of sense.

300 to 100 is a really worst case scenario (though possible). I also have a Ford Mach e EV and watch the Mach e Forum regularly. A person for Alaska posted a nice write-up about a test drive in -35 Deg F weather. In those very extreme conditions an ~50% range reduction was observed. Nice report, worth a read if you are planning to use an EV in cold weather.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...-mach-e-range-test-what-could-go-wrong.11669/

 

[ja_kub_sz]

How many really "need" 400 miles of range? 300 miles is a long way. Longer than my bladder can go. EV's still aren't the most practical for long distance travel. If you're someone that travels over 1,000 miles on a regular basis, EV's probably aren't the best option, yet. However, for daily driving needs, 300 miles is way more than most people will ever need. Thus, if you're someone who only travels over 300 miles a couple of times of year, then the inconvenience of having to stop longer to charge over just filling with gas is worth the tradeoff of what you benefit every other day.

Likewise, more range would be better for towing, but again, if you're someone that tows over 500 miles on a very regular basis, again, EV's are still not the most practical for that application. Even the 400 mile battery is likely going to struggle to get 200 miles while towing anything over 5,000 lbs. So in that respect, its only about a 50 mile difference when compared with the Large Pack. I can't imagine too many purchasing and EV truck to use primarily for towing long distances on a daily basis.

I'm one that always wants more range, just because. But honestly, I never have a real need for it. I have the long range Model S. Previously had a 2013 Model S that only had 190 miles in real world highway speeds range. The newer one is rated for 400 miles, but is closer to 270 miles at "keep up with the flow" highway speeds. I find that I still stop at the same places I did with the prior Model S. The only difference being, I save a few minutes on the charge time with the newer car. But, in either case, the time is in the 30 minute range, which is far longer than a 3-4 minute stop for gas. So, adding 5-10 minutes really doesn't make much difference.

It's more psychological than it is practical. Not saying its going to be true for EVERYONE, but for MOST people, a 300 mile range vehicle will serve you just as well as a 400 Mile Range battery. I too originally ordered the 400 mile pack, just because. Then realized it likely would delay delivery by at least a year and changed my configuration a few months ago. If I'm going to drive from California to New York, I wouldn't take either one. Would rent a gas car. I'll do trips that require no more than 1 stop, maybe 2 on the rare occasions. Otherwise, the added time to charge for longer distance travel is just too much of a sacrifice (for me). For the 1 stop trips, happy to sacrifice the time for the year long benefits of EV use. So, point being, for a large majority of you, you won't even notice the difference between having 300 miles or 400 miles. Plug it in each night at home and you have more than enough for daily needs either way. The 300 mile battery is lighter and more efficient than toting around a bunch of extra weight for the 400 mile battery you're never using. Thus, in addition to the $10,000 you save up front, you'll also save with each charge as your wh/mi will be notably higher with the smaller battery.

If that helps anyway. Speaking from experience with EV's over the past 9+ years.

100% agree with you, all great points. I too had one of the first 90D's and specifically got the 90 over the 85 for range reason and still was in a pinch several times.

I knew (kinda knew) this was gonna be an issue and made multiple orders to somewhat account for this.

I'll sadly downgrade to a Large pack R1T and then use my other order for the Max Pack once available and sell my R1T. I figure there should be adequate demand for these vehicles in the used market with what I'm sure will be future wait times to secure a vehicle beyond 2023.

I drive roughly 36-40k miles for work and on bad days almost 500 miles, so it'll be interesting with the 315 range Large pack. But if I run out of juice I'll let Rivian know about it.

Honestly if there's a time where I wouldn't have enough range, and if I roll into work and know depending on what the day throws at me that I'll come up short, I'm gonna call Rivian and let them know.

That's one of the big things I want to discuss with customer service when I get my call in January to talk about my 2018 order. I want Rivian's assurance that if I am short on range they'll come to me and charge my car up for me while I'm at work so I can make it home.

I wonder what they'll say?

 

[emoore]

100% agree with you, all great points. I too had one of the first 90D's and specifically got the 90 over the 85 for range reason and still was in a pinch several times.

I knew (kinda knew) this was gonna be an issue and made multiple orders to somewhat account for this.

I'll sadly downgrade to a Large pack R1T and then use my other order for the Max Pack once available and sell my R1T. I figure there should be adequate demand for these vehicles in the used market with what I'm sure will be future wait times to secure a vehicle beyond 2023.

I drive roughly 36-40k miles for work and on bad days almost 500 miles, so it'll be interesting with the 315 range Large pack. But if I run out of juice I'll let Rivian know about it.

Honestly if there's a time where I wouldn't have enough range, and if I roll into work and know depending on what the day throws at me that I'll come up short, I'm gonna call Rivian and let them know.

That's one of the big things I want to discuss with customer service when I get my call in January to talk about my 2018 order. I want Rivian's assurance that if I am short on range they'll come to me and charge my car up for me while I'm at work so I can make it home.

I wonder what they'll say?

I know you are upset at Rivian about the max pack but it’s a bit ridiculous to think Rivian is responsible for you running out of juice. I don’t see anyone blaming Ford or GM or even Tesla for running out of gas/range.

 

[ja_kub_sz]

Yeahbut you're not going to get 300 miles of range. When you factor in:

• All Terrain tires: -12.5%
• 60+ mph speed: -10%+
• Rain or snow on road: -20%
• Cold Weather (10*F): -20%+
• HVAC: -10%
• Heat in winter: -15% to -30%
• Standard Driving (80% charge): -20%

Not to mention the possibility of:

• Headwinds
• Excessive acceleration habit
• Battery Age

And you're left with... well let's see:

If you're driving AT tires, on the highway, in the rain or snow, in the winter, with the heat on, and it's a regular drive so you're using the 80% charge number, then your 314 miles of range becomes

(314 * (1-0.125) * (1-0.10) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.2) * (1-0.20)) = 101.28

101.28 miles per charge. And again, that doesn't take into account excessive acceleration, elevation changes, or headwinds. Of course it also doesn't take into account using the "Conserve Mode" which would make sense on long highway drives.

In any case, 300 miles becomes 100 awfully fast. When you're looking at 50 miles of roundtrip distance you might start thinking that the Max Pack makes a certain amount of sense.

Those are all great points, but maybe a bit excessive in your estimate. Again, you're right about those loss points but maybe overstating the drops. Alaska being a possible outlier?

I had my Model S and with the extreme Illinois cold weather and leaving my EV outside for half the time I still would hit about 65% max range (I had 21" wheels and my 90D was rated for 275 miles) which real world was about 175 miles.

The R1T should get (I hope) 200+ miles in those same worst case scenario situations. And for most 200 miles is totally acceptable, for me I'm honestly going to be pushing the envelope.

 

[ja_kub_sz]

I know you are upset at Rivian about the max pack but it’s a bit ridiculous to think Rivian is responsible for you running out of juice. I don’t see anyone blaming Ford or GM or even Tesla for running out of gas/range.

Rivian is offering a rescue service, all I'm gonna ask is how this service will be implemented.

I bought a car from a Land Rover dealer that's 90 miles away from my house, which is basically the nearest dealership with the sole stipulation that they would personally come to me to pick up my car for service appointments and they've held true to that.

Maybe Rivian would be willing to do the same (come to me should there be a range issue)? Rivian partnering with mobile service vehicles that have a 240v generator on them would be a huge help. All they have to do is send somebody your way plug your car in for 2 hours on a generator while you're at work, and problem solved. Something like this would really go a long way in restoring the confidence in people who placed orders for Max packs, and now will probably be encouraged by Rivian to switch over.

After all Rivian doesn't want to scare off 20% of its pre-order holders correct?

 

[emoore]

Rivian is offering a rescue service, all I'm gonna ask is how this service will be implemented.

I bought a car from a Land Rover dealer that's 90 miles away from my house, which is basically the nearest dealership with the sole stipulation that they would personally come to me to pick up my car for service appointments and they've held true to that.

Maybe Rivian would be willing to do the same (come to me should there be a range issue)? Rivian partnering with mobile service vehicles that have a 240v generator on them would be a huge help. All they have to do is send somebody your way plug your car in for 2 hours on a generator while you're at work, and problem solved. Something like this would really go a long way in restoring the confidence in people who placed orders for Max packs, and now will probably be encouraged by Rivian to switch over.

After all Rivian doesn't want to scare off 20% of its pre-order holders correct?

Will Land Rover pick you up if you run out of gas?

 

[SeaGeo]

I would be curious about that, if the buffer is built in. I think we would still wait for the max pack but for others on the fence that may make a difference for them. Also, I did appreciate the map. I may use that, as my wife has range anxiety.

Every BEV that I can think of has a buffer built into it. That "80%" rule reflects a typical buffer and daily use. Charging up to 100% and down to a very low state of charge is fine, you just don't generally want to keep the car at those SOC for very long. So if you have a long trip, charge it up overnight to 100%. However, if you're doing a long road trip that's beyond the range of the vehicle, realistically it's more efficient to charge to <80% for most cars, and for some cars (looking at you Lucid) it'd be best to charge to <50% and hop between chargers.

Yeahbut you're not going to get 300 miles of range. When you factor in:

• All Terrain tires: -12.5%
• 60+ mph speed: -10%+
• Rain or snow on road: -20%
• Cold Weather (10*F): -20%+
• HVAC: -10%
• Heat in winter: -15% to -30%
• Standard Driving (80% charge): -20%

Not to mention the possibility of:

• Headwinds
• Excessive acceleration habit
• Battery Age

And you're left with... well let's see:

If you're driving AT tires, on the highway, in the rain or snow, in the winter, with the heat on, and it's a regular drive so you're using the 80% charge number, then your 314 miles of range becomes

(314 * (1-0.125) * (1-0.10) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.20) * (1-0.2) * (1-0.20)) = 101.28

101.28 miles per charge. And again, that doesn't take into account excessive acceleration, elevation changes, or headwinds. Of course it also doesn't take into account using the "Conserve Mode" which would make sense on long highway drives.

In any case, 300 miles becomes 100 awfully fast. When you're looking at 50 miles of roundtrip distance you might start thinking that the Max Pack makes a certain amount of sense.

as others have noted, you're tripling up, and you're making assumptions about the highway range that may or may not be true (hence we need a range test).

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