When will the US get true fast charging?

[Time2Roll]

I thought Tesla had a MW charger ready to go for the Semi once production starts.

Otherwise there is no point in MW infrastructure when zero cars can accept the full power.
As far as the grid goes I would rather see 10x 100kW chargers vs 1x MW charger.

And there is this:

Apparently, battery packs degrade at a faster rate when frequently charged at stations capable of delivering over 100 kW of power, which covers certain Level 3 chargers. The study found that Level 2 and other less-powerful fast chargers had batteries degrade at half the rate, by comparison. Frequency of use plays a critical role here, as well. EVs that spent more than 12% of their total charging sessions using high-power (over 100 kW) chargers experienced a 2.5% annual battery degradation. Fast chargers used for less than 12% of the total charging sessions saw degradation rates only go as high as 1.5%. The sample size included over 22,700 EVs across 21 models.

https://www.jalopnik.com/2091204/fast-charging-ev-degrades-battery-worth-preventing/

Sponsored

 

[Kaiju]

Think of it less as high kW fast charging being superior technology and more about different markets favouring different tradeoffs. It's not that all the auto makers can't do it, it's up to this point not been deemed important enough.

I'll point out the Silverado EV is an 800V system and still ranks at the bottom. It's less about the input voltage and more about the thermals. Lucid has an '800V' system as well but you'll probably notice the correlation between the charging rates and the pack size. Bigger packs have worse rates and you'll probably also notice the exceptions tend to be on different parts of the cost curve. Lucid is expensive, model Y is not.

Urban centers in particular align with small vehicles and expect that many owners will not be able to charge themselves at home, so there's much more of an incentive to charge faster. It then also becomes important to increase throughput on the charging stations in dense areas. If you make the battery pack less energy dense (and often more expensive) you can improve its cooling and charging by quite a bit. It becomes a much more important consideration for owners than in places like the US.

The US by contrast favours large vehicles that are relatively inefficient with large packs, where it's expected that most owners will do 95%-99% of their charging at home where the speed doesn't really matter. This makes it kind of misleading to do some comparisons as a lot of the things that look great on paper won't sell well in the US because they're small. Charge rates will probably get better as the market pressures make it so, but because of the relative rarity of high kW charging it's more a marketing gimmick than an actual benefit and odds are both Euro and US makers won't bother trying to match the bleeding edge there. At some point it will be good enough and I wager most people don't care about the difference between a 5 or a 10 minute charge, or at least not enough to fork out more money for it.

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

The US is well behind, and on that we completely agree. There were ~21 million EVs sold last year (14.1 million BEVs and 6.6 million PHEVs) representing a 26% global market share. That is a mass adoption level in my book. Maybe you define it differently. When over half of all vehicles sold in the worlds largest car market and 25% of all sold in the third largest market (EU) are plug-in, and a number of emerging markets are skipping over ICE and going straight to EVs (Viet Nam 40% market share) then I think we are on at a mass adoption curve in most places. Not in the US.

The Technologically Advanced markets in automotive tech are clearly China (far ahead) and increasingly Europe with a blend of Chinese and German companies that have leap-frogged the US and Japanese.

I'm not sure who you're arguing with. I'm talking about the US market only and BEVs only.

Battery technology and charging infrastructure don't affect PHEV adoption, so I don't think sales of PHEVs are relevant the conversation.

 

[BigSkies]

Technology both improves and declines in price with scale, with various industries improving at various rates. An experience curve is commonly used to measure this. It's generally thought of as the improvement for every doubling of production.

The math is simple. Last time I checked, the market for EV's in China is around 10M/yr and growing rapidly. It's around 3M in the EU and growing at a decent clip. We're still sub-2M in the US and stagnating.

As Chinese companies scale and bring their efficiencies to the rest of the world, the US and European companies will lose share. Neither the US or EU builds EV's in enough volume to compete globally.

The US will be last global market to see EV improvements.

As politically unpopular as it is, at least the US still has access to a lot of underlying technology through JV's. It's no accident that every US based automaker relies heavily on non-US battery technology.

There are a few US startups out there that had some opportunities in the market (QuantumScape, Amperius, Sila, etc.) but I think the Big Billionaire Bill tanked their opening in the market.

 

[mkhuffman]

No EV anywhere offers 500 miles of EPA rated range and charges in 10 minutes. There are some cars with big range, and some that have high C-rate charging, but not both. There are some Chinese vehicles with overall good specs, and they are the overall leaders for sure, but to say they're "5-7 years" ahead is silly.

There is a balance between overall range, efficiency, and charge speeds that can change how each vehicle is ranked. As I mentioned, a lot of US EVs are severely limited by the average C-rate charge speed and the low efficiency of some of the larger vehicles. Lucid and Porsche do both pretty well. You can still put up some impressive numbers if you can charge close to the max speed of 350kw for sustained periods of time in the US. If we had higher sustained C-rates, we'd be competitive. I added the Silverado EV to the list to show that a giant battery isn't everything. It has great range from the start, but its low C-rate and terrible efficiency means you'll be sitting for a while, even though its average charging power is decent.

VehicleBattery Capacity10–70% TimeAvg. PowerAvg. C-rateCharging mphEPA Range (Est.)Zeekr 001 (2026)95.0 kWh~7 Min480 kW5.1C1,697 mph330 MilesBYD Han L (EV)83.2 kWh~7 Min420 kW5.1C1,671 mph325 MilesLi Auto Mega102.7 kWh~9 Min410 kW4.0C1,260 mph315 MilesLucid Air (Sapphire)118.0 kWh~13 Min320 kW2.8C1,182 mph427 MilesPorsche Taycan (2025+)97.0 kWh~12 Min291 kW3.0C1,065 mph318 MilesLotus Emeya98.9 kWh~11 Min331 kW3.3C1,015 mph310 MilesHyundai Ioniq 684.0 kWh~14 Min215 kW2.6C900 mph350 MilesZeekr 001 (Qilin 140)140.0 kWh~24 Min210 kW1.5C690 mph460 MilesTesla Model Y (LR)78.0 kWh~19 Min150 kW1.9C625 mph330 MilesAion LX Plus144.4 kWh~30 Min175 kW1.2C558 mph465 MilesNio ET7 (Ultra LR)150.0 kWh~35 Min155 kW1.0C494 mph480 MilesSilverado EV (RST)205.0 kWh~38 Min225 kW1.1C455 mph460 Miles

What are the consequences of charging at 4 to 5C? Faster battery degradation and severely shortened lifespan? I am willing to bet that those batteries charged at 5C are at 60% SoH after 1-2 years. Is that worth it?

Not to me. I appreciate Rivian and other reputable manufacturers emphasis on quality and lifespan. SoH is important to most of us in the first world.

 

[beatle]

High c-rates can reduce lifespan and increase degradation. Porsche knows this and even offers an option in the Taycan to reduce DCFC speed to extend battery life. The effects are not as black and white as to how quickly and how much though. As battery chemistry improves, these effects are reduced. LFP is much better at fast charging than NMC. The fact that it's less energy dense means there's more mass to absorb the heat for a given battery capacity. Since heat is a killer, you can charge faster for longer.

For as infrequently as I DCFC though, I rarely need that kind of speed. This is more important for people who are DCFC as their primary means of filling the battery.

 

[Dark-Fx]

I thought Tesla had a MW charger ready to go for the Semi once production starts.

Otherwise there is no point in MW infrastructure when zero cars can accept the full power.
As far as the grid goes I would rather see 10x 100kW chargers vs 1x MW charger.

And there is this:

Apparently, battery packs degrade at a faster rate when frequently charged at stations capable of delivering over 100 kW of power, which covers certain Level 3 chargers. The study found that Level 2 and other less-powerful fast chargers had batteries degrade at half the rate, by comparison. Frequency of use plays a critical role here, as well. EVs that spent more than 12% of their total charging sessions using high-power (over 100 kW) chargers experienced a 2.5% annual battery degradation. Fast chargers used for less than 12% of the total charging sessions saw degradation rates only go as high as 1.5%. The sample size included over 22,700 EVs across 21 models.

https://www.jalopnik.com/2091204/fast-charging-ev-degrades-battery-worth-preventing/

Chicken and Egg issue. I was super glad that EA had so many 350kW stations in February of 2022 when I took my Hummer EV on a road trip from Michigan to Florida and back. And glad EVGo had a few too. We likely wouldn't have even considered the trip if most stations were 50 or 125kW shared.

 

[2kwik4u]

Yeah that's simply not true.

I think he was talking on a global scale. And while all of his examples point towards China, there are other countries. Norway is a great example of mass market adoption.

I also agree that the US, on a global scale, is far more backward looking than forward looking regarding EV's.

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

I also agree that the US, on a global scale, is far more backward looking than forward looking regarding EV's.

To you it may be "backward looking," to others it may just be that the value proposition for EVs hasn't reached a point of mass adoption. I love my EV, but I certainly understand the hundreds of millions of Americans who are still skeptical of the benefits.

RJ has it right, it's up to the manufacturers to make a compelling reason to drive an EV, and buyers will vote with their feet.

 

[ATLRivvy]

You do realize that fast charging requires vehicles to be able to accept higher voltage; hence, allows current (amps) to flow faster for the same given charger capability, right?

This is why many of us cry out for 800V+ architecture for the vehicle. The current infrastructure (mostly Tesla SC), are capable of charging EVs much faster than the vehicles ability to accept the charging.

Could have ended the thread here. Only a small % of EVs in the US can even fully utilize the 350kw charging we have.

Rivians in particular have a trash charging curve and only even hit 200 for a couple minutes before falling

 

[Time2Roll]

Chicken and Egg issue. I was super glad that EA had so many 350kW stations in February of 2022 when I took my Hummer EV on a road trip from Michigan to Florida and back. And glad EVGo had a few too. We likely wouldn't have even considered the trip if most stations were 50 or 125kW shared.

Yes I would rather have 3x 350kW chargers available vs 1 MW charger.
That way if two are charging I can get started right away vs one on MW tapering down and one vehicle waiting already.

 

[Dark-Fx]

Yes I would rather have 3x 350kW chargers available vs 1 MW charger.
That way if two are charging I can get started right away vs one on MW tapering down and one vehicle waiting already.

Why can't it be 3 stations that power share 1 MW, with the distribution able to supply the entire 1 MW to a single vehicle if that's all that's connected?

Rivian's power share will re-balance it's 300kW power to 200/100 if there are two plugged in and one is requesting only around 100kW

 

[mkhuffman]

Rivians in particular have a trash charging curve and only even hit 200 for a couple minutes before falling

I think the charging curve on my Gen2 is really good. Certainly it is not Lucid Gravity good, but I can charge 20-80% in less than 40 minutes. And considering the massive size of the battery, that's a lot of kWh and a lot of miles.

If Rivian moves to 800V, I bet the 141 kWh pack will still take 25 minutes to charge 20-80. Is a 13-minute improvement really that big a deal? Not to me.

Of course I am comparing my R1T with the totally trash charging curve I had in my Mach-e. Holy crap that was bad. It took longer to charge that 91 kWh battery than it does to charge the much bigger battery in my T.

I guess it is just perspective....

 

[Time2Roll]

Why can't it be 3 stations that power share 1 MW, with the distribution able to supply the entire 1 MW to a single vehicle if that's all that's connected?

Rivian's power share will re-balance it's 300kW power to 200/100 if there are two plugged in and one is requesting only around 100kW

That works. Probably costs more. Plenty of whiners about price already. As there get to be more EVs it will be rare to get the full 1 MW anyway. What is a practical limit of sharing? 10? Seems like more vehicles are coming faster than MW vehicles. Right now it seems we need additional chargers more than faster ones.

 

[carsly]

I'd offer to think about the challenge differently - chemical batteries are going to hit a physical throughput limit no matter what voltage you run them at. Chewing at the limit repeatedly accelerates degradation.

What if the DC fast chargers did NOT dump power directly into the EV batteries? Bear with me.

In China, there are buses that use ultracapacitors to suck in enough energy at a stop of ~30 seconds to make it to the next stop. They aren't trying to store hundreds of miles of potential power. F1 cars do something very similar, ultracapacitors charge during braking and that energy is only stored for a short period of time until it's needed for the next acceleration burst. You see, ultracapacitors charge exceedingly fast, but given today's materials science get to be too heavy to store a large amount of charge for long-haul travel.

But what if they didn't have to?

My ideal (pencil sketch) solution would entail pulling up to a DC Fast Charger, plugging in for less than a minute, and then going on your way. What happens in that minute? The fast charger dumps power into an onboard ultracapacitor built into the EV of your choice. Maybe it stores enough power to take you another 100 miles or so. The ultracapacitor then could charge your EV while your are traveling instead of needing to stay parked to charge.

It's no pipe dream, a production car used something similar with ultracapacitors in 2019. You know it as the Lamborghini Sian:

There is still hard engineering work to be done to bring something like this to commercial scale and reasonable price points. But we have the technology, we just have to do the engineering work to make it happen.

Sponsored