Doug DeMuro Can't Stop Praising R2

[CrazyOne]

IMO, the big opportunity for iX3 and EX60 are apartment dwellers who are interested in an EV. The 400kw and 400 mile range makes it feasible for them to own an EV and charge only once a few times a week at a fast charger and spend only 15-20 min doing so. Can’t say you can do that with an R2

I don't see why someone would buy an EV, if they don't have home charging. L3 charging is more expensive(usually) than gas and very inconvenient. A hybrid would be a much better choice. There will of course be some exceptions.

400 miles of range isn't too hard to achieve. Everyone is still using similar cells and needs more space. Allocating space for a bigger battery means that it will be unused in most of the cars sold. This is can be used for cargo or passenger room. I don't believe Max pack accounts for a significant share of Rivian sales. Charging speeds can definitely be better than it is with R1. It's not the peak speed that's really bad, but the thermal management.

Sponsored

 

[Redline]

Aren’t we missing the fact that a big part of Rivian’s and lack of range/efficiency, is also a design choice? It’s essentially a brick. It’s never going to be as efficient as some of the more teardrop looking EVs.

 

[DuoRivian]

Aren’t we missing the fact that a big part of Rivian’s and lack of range/efficiency, is also a design choice? It’s essentially a brick. It’s never going to be as efficient as some of the more teardrop looking EVs.

I don’t believe anyone has forgotten that. The battery is smaller than some competitors (a choice) and the electrical system is 400V (a choice) - both of these have led to, on paper, lower specs than some comparably priced vehicles.

 

[Redline]

I don’t believe anyone has forgotten that. The battery is smaller than some competitors (a choice) and the electrical system is 400V (a choice) - both of these have led to, on paper, lower specs than some comparably priced vehicles.

Rivian isn’t stupid. They’ll eventually get toe 800v, I am sure of it.

I think the ramp up of R2 is so important and they probably had to make some decisions to get that kicked off sooner than later.

I still think Rivian as a brand will never be the leader in charging, range, etc…but that isn’t why you buy a Rivian right?

We’ll see.

 

[savethemanual]

Rivian isn’t stupid. They’ll eventually get toe 800v, I am sure of it.

I think the ramp up of R2 is so important and they probably had to make some decisions to get that kicked off sooner than later.

I still think Rivian as a brand will never be the leader in charging, range, etc…but that isn’t why you buy a Rivian right?

We’ll see.

Agreed, they and nearly all makers will get to 800v or higher at some point....I guarantee it's on Rivian's timeline. They are in survival mode right now, every decision and resource for R2 was scrutinized. R2 will not be a charging beast, but certainly will be just fine for the mass market for a while until they can upgrade, because the competition is not going to slow down!

 

[Hodog16]

Yeah I’m interested in the R2 because of how it looks and reportedly drives.

Counter to a majority of EV shoppers, I don’t care about charging times or range (within reason) because I always charge at home and never drive more than 100 miles in a day for a daily driver.

I also don’t care about missing out on lidar because I like to drive myself.

I’m the perfect launch customer lol.

 

[DuoRivians]

I don't see why someone would buy an EV, if they don't have home charging. L3 charging is more expensive(usually) than gas and very inconvenient. A hybrid would be a much better choice. There will of course be some exceptions.

400 miles of range isn't too hard to achieve. Everyone is still using similar cells and needs more space. Allocating space for a bigger battery means that it will be unused in most of the cars sold. This is can be used for cargo or passenger room. I don't believe Max pack accounts for a significant share of Rivian sales. Charging speeds can definitely be better than it is with R1. It's not the peak speed that's really bad, but the thermal management.

From a market opportunity point of view, going after the same home owners for more sales seems kinda saturated now. If these people are interested in EVs, they would have bought one by now. Sure, Rivian may capture sales from Tesla, but that’s a fixed pie/split the pie differently situation.

It leaves open the potential for BMW/Volvo go after a larger segment of the population.

As much as people here may not like it, there’s a very real chance that Rivian made a strategic error going 400V with the R2, and now may not ever make it. Rivian also isn’t getting any help from the political climate, no more regulatory credits, no more IRA tax credit.

 

[mkhuffman]

From a market opportunity point of view, going after the same home owners for more sales seems kinda saturated now. If these people are interested in EVs, they would have bought one by now. Sure, Rivian may capture sales from Tesla, but that’s a fixed pie/split the pie differently situation.

It leaves open the potential for BMW/Volvo go after a larger segment of the population.

As much as people here may not like it, there’s a very real chance that Rivian made a strategic error going 400V with the R2, and now may not ever make it. Rivian also isn’t getting any help from the political climate, no more regulatory credits, no more IRA tax credit.

About a year ago my neighbor across the street got their first BEV - a Tesla Model Y. Very few others on my street have a BEV. A good friend of mine just got his first BEV as well, also a MY.

I think Rivian looked at the success of the MY, it's range and charging speed, and determined the R2 can be just as successful with similar specs and access to the Tesla SC network.

There are still a ton of people who are interested in a BEV but have yet to get one. At least that is what it seems like when I look around my neighborhood. And when I talk to people about my truck.

They are interested, they just haven't found the right vehicle to get them to do it. Like another one of my friends who has been considering getting one for a a couple years but hasn't yet. He might end up in a R2. Or a MY.

Nobody knows the future but I am optimistic the R2 will be a success.

 

[Bullwinkle]

All I’m saying is that this “coolness” comparison between the two is really arbitrary. Calm down with your Rivian fanboy stuff here

From a market opportunity point of view, going after the same home owners for more sales seems kinda saturated now. If these people are interested in EVs, they would have bought one by now. Sure, Rivian may capture sales from Tesla, but that’s a fixed pie/split the pie differently situation.

It leaves open the potential for BMW/Volvo go after a larger segment of the population.

As much as people here may not like it, there’s a very real chance that Rivian made a strategic error going 400V with the R2, and now may not ever make it. Rivian also isn’t getting any help from the political climate, no more regulatory credits, no more IRA tax credit.

There are probably 10+ key decision points that affect the R2 buying decision. Singling out road trip charging performance as the most important and the key to the company's survival is not logical IMO.

Brand image, acceleration, ergonomics, handling, zonal architecture, exterior esthetics, interior esthetics, ride quality, off-road ability, safety, autonomous driving, and space/functionality are all important. Price point is also important--maybe most important. On many of these, Rivian gets top marks in class.

Capturing sales from one of the best-selling vehicles in the world (Model Y) is not insignificant for a company that needs to sell 200,000/yr units to be successful. Also, there seems to be a thesis that there will only be 2-3 successful vehicles in the MId-size EV SUV class. Look at ICE Mid-size SUVs, there are 10 plus very successful vehicles within $10k of each other.

 

[Count Orlok]

who?

 

[CrazyOne]

About a year ago my neighbor across the street got their first BEV - a Tesla Model Y. Very few others on my street have a BEV. A good friend of mine just got his first BEV as well, also a MY.

I think Rivian looked at the success of the MY, it's range and charging speed, and determined the R2 can be just as successful with similar specs and access to the Tesla SC network.

There are still a ton of people who are interested in a BEV but have yet to get one. At least that is what it seems like when I look around my neighborhood. And when I talk to people about my truck.

They are interested, they just haven't found the right vehicle to get them to do it. Like another one of my friends who has been considering getting one for a a couple years but hasn't yet. He might end up in a R2. Or a MY.

Nobody knows the future but I am optimistic the R2 will be a success.

Agree. There are a lot of 5+ and 10+ year old cars in our street. Our second car is turning 9 this year. Cars are expensive depreciating assets and lot of people keep them for a long time. Model y didn't exist when most of those cars were bought.

The three new cars in last 4 years are R1S, R1T and Model Y. Zero new ICE.

 

[therealcmj]

Allocating space for a bigger battery means that it will be unused in most of the cars sold.

The thing about a bigger battery is that you DO use it when charging even if you don't use it use it.

The bigger the battery the more kWh you have in the first 80% of it - where DC fast charging is actually fast (i.e. before the rate decreases too much). Yes, it weighs more, but weight has less of an impact on range than you think. And the difference in physical space isn't (generally) made available to owners to store other anything else.

All things being equal the 100 kWh vs 140 kW battery has 80 vs 112 kWh. Which is an extra 50 or so miles per charge on a road trip. Which makes a big difference in convenience for the thing that everyone seems I talk to seems to get worked up about.

And even if you do have home charging that extra capacity means needing to plug in less frequently.

 

[sparked]

The thing about a bigger battery is that you DO use it when charging even if you don't use it use it.

The bigger the battery the more kWh you have in the first 80% of it - where DC fast charging is actually fast (i.e. before the rate decreases too much). Yes, it weighs more, but weight has less of an impact on range than you think. And the difference in physical space isn't (generally) made available to owners to store other anything else.

Let's say Rivian gave us a max pack with R2 but same architecture, would you end up with more range in the same time? Not necessarily faster than the 30 minutes announced so far, but maybe more range in the same time?

 

[CrazyOne]

The thing about a bigger battery is that you DO use it when charging even if you don't use it use it.

The bigger the battery the more kWh you have in the first 80% of it - where DC fast charging is actually fast (i.e. before the rate decreases too much). Yes, it weighs more, but weight has less of an impact on range than you think. And the difference in physical space isn't (generally) made available to owners to store other anything else.

All things being equal the 100 kWh vs 140 kW battery has 80 vs 112 kWh. Which is an extra 50 or so miles per charge on a road trip. Which makes a big difference in convenience for the thing that everyone seems I talk to seems to get worked up about.

And even if you do have home charging that extra capacity means needing to plug in less frequently.

It's not free though. Evs have a cost problem. I would say its the #1 problem for people with home charging.

If Chevy sells a 200KWH Silverado at the same base price as ICE, it probably would take 50% or more market share.

 

[DuoRivians]

There are probably 10+ key decision points that affect the R2 buying decision. Singling out road trip charging performance as the most important and the key to the company's survival is not logical IMO.

Brand image, acceleration, ergonomics, handling, zonal architecture, exterior esthetics, interior esthetics, ride quality, off-road ability, safety, autonomous driving, and space/functionality are all important. Price point is also important--maybe most important. On many of these, Rivian gets top marks in class.

Capturing sales from one of the best-selling vehicles in the world (Model Y) is not insignificant for a company that needs to sell 200,000/yr units to be successful. Also, there seems to be a thesis that there will only be 2-3 successful vehicles in the MId-size EV SUV class. Look at ICE Mid-size SUVs, there are 10 plus very successful vehicles within $10k of each other.

And what are the odds that someone who would have bought an EV already hasn’t because they are specifically waiting for the R2? IMO, not that big of a segment.

I am saying that a new category of EV customers exist who are apartment dwellers. For them, a 300 mile range car that charges at 400v isn’t very convenient. That’s like charging every 1.5 weeks and waiting 30-40 minutes at a fast charger.

But an EV that gets 400 mile range and charges at 400kw means they can charge every 2-2.5 weeks and waiting only 15-20 minutes at a fast charger.

So this class of vehicle has the potential to capture a new segment of customers.

Edit: Rivian needs to sell 400K/yr to make operating profit. Not 200k/yr

Sponsored