Am I the only one who thinks anything less than 400mi of range is legacy at this point?

[2kwik4u]

Where do guys come up with this stuff? I am on my 2nd R1 in the northeast and even this winter with many days in the teens, running between NJ-PA-VA I can consistently get 200-225 miles on a large pack with AT tires (rated for 289) and some buffer to spare.

Yes, on loooong road trips, like 5 states away type road trips, it can get annoying having to make an extra stop or two but the northeast? It's one of the most dense areas for charging options. I honestly don't even think about it anymore.

Same. I do Buffalo<->Louisville quite often. Usually around Thanksgiving, and then again around Easter. Drove home in '24 through a lake effect event with frigid temps. I made an extra 15min stop in Erie that I don't make in the summer. Mines rated at 305 with the AT's, and I can easily get 250 out of it in the winter. I don't because the major cities aren't that far apart, but it's got the capacity. Still only a 16% drop. Once you hit the first fast charger to get the battery warm, and the motors/bearings are good and warm, the efficiency isn't far off from "normal". I average around 1.9mi/kWh in the winter trips, and around 2.2mi/kWh in the summer.

I have to tow my boat at highway speeds to get a 50% drop in range.

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[Hereforthesnacks]

Smaller battery packs have far better charging rates regardless of their voltage so it's somewhat difficult to do apples to apples across manufacturers. The question is mostly as it pertains to Rivian's 400V system and changing it to an 800V system

It’s a 100kwHr battery. It’s on par with Rivian options. Folks here have consistently seen 800V systems have much better charging curves than Rivian’s. It’s a main complaint.

 

[Dark-Fx]

There is a large consort of the population that still things "We have to make good time", for whatever reason. My wife is one of these people. I used to be one of these people. It took about 2 road trips to realize that on our normal (4x a year) 600mi one way road trip.......that it took us an extra 90min in the EV. Went from 9hrs to 10.5hrs. What the hell were we rushing for? So we could sit at the hotel for an extra hour?

Are any of your charging stops at places that don't have anything to do there? That's when I'd want faster charging. That plus longer range gives you more flexibility in your stops. Sometimes we have to make a stop where there's no-where to charge, and that just means that entire time stopped is wasted time that we're still going to have to do again to charge.

 

[macb00kemdanno]

Are any of your charging stops at places that don't have anything to do there? That's when I'd want faster charging. That plus longer range gives you more flexibility in your stops. Sometimes we have to make a stop where there's no-where to charge, and that just means that entire time stopped is wasted time that we're still going to have to do again to charge.

As a Tesla owner who only charges at Superchargers when roadtripping, 99.9% of the time there's AT LEAST a place to use the bathroom and grab a bite to eat within walking distance. That's one of the great things Tesla has done: put Superchargers near interstate off-ramps, usually at a gas station or a fast-food restaurant parking lot (at least along the I-95/I-85 corridor).

I'm usually only stopping for 10 to 15 mins, so I run in to use the bathroom or fiddle on my phone while it charges. For charges of 30 mins or so, I'll just bring up the in-car infotainment and watch YouTube clips, Disney+, or some other brain-rot while I wait.

But even then, it's not something I do all the time. In the past 12 months, only 5% of my charging has been fast-charging (Supercharger). I imagine that percentage will stay the same once I take delivery of an R2.

I would also assume that Rivians have a setting in the navigation to use Superchargers with Magic Dock when route planning?

 

[RedScare]

I own a Porsche Macan and a Porsche Boxster. Neither gets 300 miles out of a tank of gas. I have never once regretted buying either vehicle, and in fact, never thought about the range until I read the constant whining about EV range. I certainly won't start now with a 330 mile R2.

 

[DD4ST]

I’m leasing now with an option to do a buyout. I see nothing wrong with it. It’s much cheaper than buying new. Nearly 80% of EVs are leased. Probably due to the expense and rapidly changing technologies.

Of course I can't find any references now, but I'm positive I heard more than one EV manufacturer explicitly state they don't really need to prioritize battery tech improvements for over 300 miles of range.

Car manufacturers are in the business to make money and you make money when you can satisfy 90% of the population. Batteries and innovation cost money (and weight), so it isn't profitable to delay things to please an extra 8-10% of car buyers.

I drive every single day, but the number of times I drive more than 200 miles in a day is maybe once a month. The number of times I drive enough where I need to charge outside my home....2-3 times a year.

EDIT: There was some talk about battery degradation. It may happen after 8-10+ years but again, let's remember the 90% where people change cars every 5-8 years. At that point, they are buying another new vehicle. Sure the preowned market does play a small role (if a manufacturer's used car is known to be terrible, their initial purchase market will decrease as well).

Do I wish I had more range in my 2023 Gen 1 R1S? Absolutely.

It is an overlanding/off road/adventure vehicle. If I want to drive out in the trails/desert, I run out of range quickly, especially when it takes 2+ hours to get there in the first place. But let's face it. Most Rivian drivers are daily driving it with their families and running errands, not exploring Moab.

It is why I'm seriously considering the Scout w/Harvester EREV. If it doesn't meet my expectations/needs, I will consider non-EV.

I’d say less than 300 miles is legacy. A 400 mile range across the board will come but smaller car chassis will be hard pressed to do so with current battery technology. There is a sweet spot between convenience/range and I believe it is actually between 350-400 miles for most people. The problem with more range via battery = bigger, heavier, and usually more lumbering. That is why you are seeing a manufacturer resurgence in hybrids to let folks drive full electric in daily commutes in smaller vehicles but have a lighter engine backup for range. However, I’m not a fan of hybrids, personally, as you are just making a more complicated vehicle and still have the headaches of a gas engine. Plus I read somewhere studies showed most hybrid owners fail to charge their batteries and run on mostly gas.

One of those manufacturers poo-pooing range was Audi. When I bought my 21 Audi eTron, Audi was on record stating range wasn’t really a big deal. They subsequently changed their tune when the market did not agree, and upped the range in subsequent years. My eTron has a 222 mile range. For our location this range is still sufficient and my eTron is more fun and smoother to drive, IMO, than my R1T. But I definitely notice the difference in range with my Max battery R1T. The R1T has to be charged almost at a frequency like gassing up an ICE vehicle, whereas the eTron needs a charge every 2-3 days.

 

[carsly]

The rub, at least for me, is the difference between EPA range on an EV and real-world range.

For example, in the summer my Cybertruck with it's 123kwh pack will do 3+ mi/kwh all day on 35" all terrains. That's over 350 miles of real-world range (I think EPA is 318). In the winter, that drops to 2.5 mi/kwh (or worse if we're 20+ degrees below freezing) and real-world range falls to 260-280 miles. Still plenty for my use cases and worst case is I supercharge once that day.

My 2025 Gen 2 R1S however isn't nearly as performant. Over 12 months of the same use as the Cybertruck I'm averaging 1.5 mi/kwh. On my 109 kwh "Large" pack that's about 160 miles of real-world range. Yes, it's closer to 1.2 mi/kwh in winter for about 120 miles of range and 1.8 mi/kwh in summer for nearly 200 miles of real-world range. In no case, on properly inflated 22" all seasons, does it come close to the EPA rated range of 300+ miles. So it's become a running around town/short distance vehicle which is fine for toting the kids around but not usable at all for road trips.

I've got a Gen 1 Dual Motor Max Pack R1T as a service loaner now and it's averaged 2.3 mi/kwh over 15,000+ miles. On a 141 kwh pack that's about 330 miles of real-world range on EPA rated range of 400+ miles. Best I can tell, and this is not exhaustive research obviously, just two data points, Rivian falls far short of EPA rated range estimates. I've heard BMW and Porsche (pouch cells, seriously?) tend to overperform on range so YMMV.

What does that mean for R2? Well, hopefully real-world range is closer to EPA than the Gen 2 Rivians (or at least my Gen 2 Rivian). Otherwise 330 miles of EPA is going to be 200-240 miles real-world and that, in 2026 --> 2027, just ain't gonna fly with iX3, Model Y and others doing 300+ real-world miles at similar or lower price points.

 

[Zoidz]

Just as an FYI here, it's a lot more complicated than that.

You must have missed my closing statement:
"There are certainly other contributing factors to these equations, but this illustrates the benefit of 800 volt is BIG."

That said it doesn't change what's going on at the cell level or the amount of heat shed by the chemistry going on during charging. As far as I can tell 800V just allows for a bigger initial energy surge until it hits thermal maximum, with the thermal maximum depending pretty much entirely on the pack mass and its cooling system.

The math clearly indicates that the less heat is produced, allowing more charging to take place before hitting any thermal limitation.

Having studied this in detail several years ago, I'm quite familiar with the various electrical architectures of 800v designs. Some designs charge in series, others rearrange electrically to charge submodules in parallel. There's plenty of data online that documents the charging curves of 400v vs 800v. You gain much more than a few minutes as you stated in your earlier post. Say what you want, but you can't deny charging curves and the fact that manufacturers are moving to 800 volt to get faster charging to satisfy consumer expectations. They would not be doing that to gain "3-5 Minutes" as you stated.

If you like, you can also deny the facts presented in this article (and many others) that provides the summary below, and the charging curve below. I won't be responding to any more challenges to the well documented facts in this thread.

 

[zefram47]

Literally the only reason I want more range is for towing, for everything else, my Gen1 Quad Large has been great. It could use better thermals so it could charge faster, but that's about it. Right now, it will hold 200-220 kW for 15 minutes and onboard 50 kWh in that time...that's great, now make it hold that for longer still and not fall off a cliff above 72%. I was an original Max Pack (180 kWh) reservation and do wish they'd made it, but again, I only care for towing. I've done several 1000 mile road trips in the middle of winter (well below freezing) and the range has been a complete non-issue even here out west.

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

The only thing that 400 miles of range will give you that 300 won't is deep vein thrombosis and hemorrhoids. You really should be stopping at least every 2-2.5 hours at a minimum.

 

[BannedByTMC]

Yes it is thermal limited ....... but the heat generated at 800V charging is a lot less so there is a significant gain, it's not a few minutes.

Only if the charge limitation is in the connectors/conductors. C rate is limited at the cell level and higher pack voltage has no impact on that. Two 10ah cells in parallel create a "pack" of 20ah, so 1C = 20 amps. Two 10ah cells in series = 10ah so 1C is 10 amps. Same total Wh capacity in both "packs" and both "packs" charging at 1C would charge in the same amount of time. Obviously the higher voltage pack can allow reduced conductor cross section and provide some weight savings and smaller charging cables.

 

[BannedByTMC]

The only thing that 400 miles of range will give you that 300 won't is deep vein thrombosis and hemorrhoids. You really should be stopping at least every 2-2.5 hours at a minimum.

Maybe if you have health issues but I can easily do 4 hours without a stop and I've done even more.

 

[LeeY]

Yup.
Northern climate and road trips. Just 300 miles doesn’t cut it. It is the reason, IMHO, that EV adoption is so slow at any price point.
I‘m not road tripping every week but stopping every 2 and one half hours for 20-25 minutes when I do is much more than my bladder needs.
Sadly, that Scout with the generator motor may end my relationship with my two year old R1t Max Pack. I once leased a Volt and thought if they gave it 100 miles of range they’d have had winner.

 

[hsctiger]

My 2018 Model S degraded a fair amount after 7 years.

2014 Model S owner here. 85kwh battery. Started at 256 miles. Now at about 223 miles of charge. I also subscribe to Recurrent, which tells me my battery is about 85% to what it used to be after 12 years and 160,000 miles which is comparable to other Recurrent subscribers. But I've done everything they say to do in order to preserve the battery- not charging full unless necessary, not letting it get down to 1-5% charge, keeping it between 30% and 80% charge when I plug in at home, etc.

Back in 2014 when we drove the kids from VA to FL, charging stations were dicey especially between SC and FL. Like going from Santee to Savannah left me with maybe 20 miles of charge so it caused some range anxiety but that was the only choice. Today that's just not an issue.

That said, it's time to let Blue Steel go and I'm looking forward to my R2 reservation getting delivered in the next several months (hopefully). Someone will get a great, old car with free supercharging.

I wouldn't worry about the R2 having 330 miles of charge in today's charging environment. It'll cause a few more stops on long road trips but frankly I prefer getting out and walking around a bit every 3 hours or so anyway. Wife...... does not. But she likes not spending hundreds on gas, oil changes, dealership shenanigans, etc.

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