In 4th year of waiting ... beginning to question if the wait is worth it

[the long way downunder]

Polestar has definitely improved their charging curve, power delivery, and I *think* range on the P2. To the point that the P2 was low on my lost of EVs when released, and now is one of the best EVs on the market for driving enthusiats. VW has improved the curve of the ID.3 and (with v3.0) the big pack ID.4. Ford has... addressed their asanine curve above 80%.

Improvements happen.

Any EV that exhibits a significant improvement in rate of charge or efficiency (range) from an OTA update was simply unfinished when it left the factory. Tesla used to purport to be applying fleet learning. Tesla did things like increase regen and smooth out the throttle response. I've not paid much attention to Polestar or how they explain upgrades. I think polestar upped the usable percentage of the battery (so did VW and Porsche.) I don't know if they achieved real efficiency gains or, as Tesla has done, locked up performance to artificially create lesser kWh variants and then offer a "golden screwdriver" unlock the hidden kWh.

I'd like to think Rivian has a finished product – actually, I'd rather think they are deliberately shipping "whatever they've got" in the way of 2018 battery technology in the Launch Edition with the intention to retrofit a state of the art pack in say 2023 once they figure out how to build the Max Pack (which I also hope will be over 200 kWh because there's nothing they can do to change the efficiency of the R1 in terms of air drag and curb weight.)




sidenote: There's surely some arcane technology in managing the cells during charging to appease the cells with current and temperature controlled to ideal states. I just don't know anywhere near enough about state of the art battery technology – there are so many frontiers of R&D being explored. LFP could be old news and Sulfur or solid state could be the next wave of technology. What we know today about battery chemistry is obsolete and will all go into history the instant a manufacturer offers a significant increase in density or cost.

As long as all the batteries are required to be near 100% recycled, I think there's a huge business for retrofitting new battery technology. I'd like to think a 2022 R1 could get a 300 or 500 kWh pack that's lighter and smaller than the 135kWh.

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[SANZC02]

Any EV that exhibits a significant improvement in rate of charge or efficiency (range) from an OTA update was simply unfinished when it left the factory. Tesla used to purport to be applying fleet learning. Tesla did things like increase regen and smooth out the throttle response. I've not paid much attention to Polestar or how they explain upgrades. I think polestar upped the usable percentage of the battery (so did VW and Porsche.) I don't know if they achieved real efficiency gains or, as Tesla has done, locked up performance to artificially create lesser kWh variants and then offer a "golden screwdriver" unlock the hidden kWh.

I'd like to think Rivian has a finished product – actually, I'd rather think they are deliberately shipping "whatever they've got" in the way of 2018 battery technology in the Launch Edition with the intention to retrofit a state of the art pack in say 2023 once they figure out how to build the Max Pack (which I also hope will be over 200 kWh because there's nothing they can do to change the efficiency of the R1 in terms of air drag and curb weight.)




sidenote: There's surely some arcane technology in managing the cells during charging to appease the cells with current and temperature controlled to ideal states. I just don't know anywhere near enough about state of the art battery technology – there are so many frontiers of R&D being explored. LFP could be old news and Sulfur or solid state could be the next wave of technology. What we know today about battery chemistry is obsolete and will all go into history the instant a manufacturer offers a significant increase in density or cost.

As long as all the batteries are required to be near 100% recycled, I think there's a huge business for retrofitting new battery technology. I'd like to think a 2022 R1 could get a 300 or 500 kWh pack that's lighter and smaller than the 135kWh.

Seems like you are completely ignoring the BMS role on the charge curve. Think of it as a throttle to keep things in a specific range.

If there is more data that shows it is safe to adjust those ranges then the charge curve would be altered.

 

[GaryL]

Any EV that exhibits a significant improvement in rate of charge or efficiency (range) from an OTA update was simply unfinished when it left the factory. Tesla used to purport to be applying fleet learning. Tesla did things like increase regen and smooth out the throttle response. I've not paid much attention to Polestar or how they explain upgrades. I think polestar upped the usable percentage of the battery (so did VW and Porsche.) I don't know if they achieved real efficiency gains or, as Tesla has done, locked up performance to artificially create lesser kWh variants and then offer a "golden screwdriver" unlock the hidden kWh.

I'd like to think Rivian has a finished product – actually, I'd rather think they are deliberately shipping "whatever they've got" in the way of 2018 battery technology in the Launch Edition with the intention to retrofit a state of the art pack in say 2023 once they figure out how to build the Max Pack (which I also hope will be over 200 kWh because there's nothing they can do to change the efficiency of the R1 in terms of air drag and curb weight.)




sidenote: There's surely some arcane technology in managing the cells during charging to appease the cells with current and temperature controlled to ideal states. I just don't know anywhere near enough about state of the art battery technology – there are so many frontiers of R&D being explored. LFP could be old news and Sulfur or solid state could be the next wave of technology. What we know today about battery chemistry is obsolete and will all go into history the instant a manufacturer offers a significant increase in density or cost.

As long as all the batteries are required to be near 100% recycled, I think there's a huge business for retrofitting new battery technology. I'd like to think a 2022 R1 could get a 300 or 500 kWh pack that's lighter and smaller than the 135kWh.

Whats your take on the Rivian-SDI battery procurement situation? Is it a good move for Rivian to put off JV until the next wave of battery innovation or a mistake not locking in a base of captive supply.

 

[stynes]

Whats your take on the Rivian-SDI battery procurement situation? Is it a good move for Rivian to put off JV until the next wave of battery innovation or a mistake not locking in a base of captive supply.

Being in Georgia, I've also wondered if there's anything to the new Rivian location being so close to the big new $2.6B SK Innovation factory on the NE side of Atlanta.

 

[Inkedsphynx]

This whole 'can't ship in 2022 what you designed in 2018' thing is absolute nonsense. There isn't an EV on the road today that isn't shipping battery technology that's at least several years older than the car platform it was put into.

Design cycles take TIME. There's not a single EV that will ship in 2022 that has battery technology conceived, architected, designed, and implemented in 2022. It. Simply. Doesn't. Work. Like. That.

The real question is - is what they're offering good enough, or not? Who cares when it was designed. It either fits your needs or it doesn't.

In regards to OTAs improving various performance aspects, including range and charge curve - yea, that's totally a thing that is possible, given that the majority of the nuts and bolts in this vehicle are in the computer systems. Yea, you can't change the coefficient of drag, but you can certainly alter how power gets delivered in certain situations, or how much pre-conditioning the system does before a charge, or even extend the length of high-input charging as you gain data to determine it's not causing battery degradation.

Last hot-take - They're never going to produce an 'LE' max pack. Simply won't happen. Not only have they never indicated they would, but those of us that chose the Large pack specifically because it was the only way to get an LE would absolutely riot.

Sit in line and live with your choices like the rest of us.

 

[the long way downunder]

This whole 'can't ship in 2022 what you designed in 2018' thing is absolute nonsense. There isn't an EV on the road today that isn't shipping battery technology that's at least several years older than the car platform it was put into.

Design cycles take TIME. There's not a single EV that will ship in 2022 that has battery technology conceived, architected, designed, and implemented in 2022. It. Simply. Doesn't. Work. Like. That.

The real question is - is what they're offering good enough, or not? Who cares when it was designed. It either fits your needs or it doesn't.

In regards to OTAs improving various performance aspects, including range and charge curve - yea, that's totally a thing that is possible, given that the majority of the nuts and bolts in this vehicle are in the computer systems. Yea, you can't change the coefficient of drag, but you can certainly alter how power gets delivered in certain situations, or how much pre-conditioning the system does before a charge, or even extend the length of high-input charging as you gain data to determine it's not causing battery degradation.

Last hot-take - They're never going to produce an 'LE' max pack. Simply won't happen. Not only have they never indicated they would, but those of us that chose the Large pack specifically because it was the only way to get an LE would absolutely riot.

Sit in line and live with your choices like the rest of us.

sorry for my "absolute" nonsense.
the 4680 was not around in '18
Tesla is making LFP batteries (developed in 2021)
the cars BYD sell today are blade packs they designed and built in the last two years
CATL and Tesla are doing the same

 

[Inkedsphynx]

Tesla revealed the 4680 in 2020.

Do you think they revealed without having done any work on it beforehand? How long do you think that work took before they revealed it? I'd bet it was at least a year or two.

So what you're really saying is that I'm wrong. Tesla is shipping batteries in 2020 developed in 2019 (maybe, could also be 2018) so they're clearly so much better at this than Rivian and Rivian is doomed because their battery technology began development a year beforehand?

Ugh. Straw man arguments either way. The R1T/R1S has a battery, you know what it is. It's either good enough for you or it isn't. If it is not, the forum exit is ---->.

 

[Randy]

I signed up on 12/21/2018, order #4700, so now I am starting on my 4th year of waiting for my R1S and I am beginning to question if the wait is worth it. I had one year on my Land Rover Discovery when I ordered the Rivian so I had that vehicle to enjoy during the wait. I have had a test drive in the R1T and that renewed my enthusiasm but now my patience is growing thin. Many other EV's are coming to market and will be readily available before it is my turn to have an R1S. Is anybody else getting tired of waiting?

Yes yes, I'm with you.3 years for me. Took delivery of an ID4 and that may satisfy my Rivian dreams..................

 

[Trekkie]

honestly for me the biggest problem is the $1000 you put down on it, that's what made me wait so long before doing it. $100? absolutely four years no problem but the $1000 zero % loan I'm giving them was harder to swallow in 2018, i waited until 2021 and now waiting until 2023 at the earliest for it.

The ID Buzz might cancel our R1S though, my wife has never been excited about a car and that one she's pretty pumped about, but I'm willing to wait on the R1T, i had to do something so leasing an Audi e-tron S which means suddenly the dam will burst and the R1Ts will ship by next week.

 

[stynes]

Last hot-take - They're never going to produce an 'LE' max pack. Simply won't happen.

Agreed.

Not only have they never indicated they would, but those of us that chose the Large pack specifically because it was the only way to get an LE would absolutely riot.

Agreed on the last part - people, myself included, would riot, but totally disagree that it's never been "indicated." See this post. I have the same email from my 12/3/2018 preorder.
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...f-the-wait-is-worth-it.3515/page-6#post-97310
"Our 180 kWh and 135 kWh packs will be available at launch, with the base variant to follow within 12 months of the start of production."

 

[stynes]

"Our 180 kWh and 135 kWh packs will be available at launch, with the base variant to follow within 12 months of the start of production."

The language in my actual confirmation email is worded slightly differently but says the same thing...
"Production will begin in 2020. Fully-equipped vehicles with the highest performance level and largest battery pack will enter production first. Our 180 kWh and 135 kWh packs will be available at launch with the 105 kWh to follow in 2021."

 

[JeffD]

I signed up on 12/21/2018, order #4700, so now I am starting on my 4th year of waiting for my R1S and I am beginning to question if the wait is worth it. I had one year on my Land Rover Discovery when I ordered the Rivian so I had that vehicle to enjoy during the wait. I have had a test drive in the R1T and that renewed my enthusiasm but now my patience is growing thin. Many other EV's are coming to market and will be readily available before it is my turn to have an R1S. Is anybody else getting tired of waiting?

I fully understand your frustrations but I am a little more patient than you….but if you want to give or maybe sell your spot I would surely be interested.

 

[Inkedsphynx]

Agreed.


Agreed on the last part - people, myself included, would riot, but totally disagree that it's never been "indicated." See this post. I have the same email from my 12/3/2018 preorder.
https://www.rivianforums.com/forum/...f-the-wait-is-worth-it.3515/page-6#post-97310
"Our 180 kWh and 135 kWh packs will be available at launch, with the base variant to follow within 12 months of the start of production."

I hate to be pedantic, but that email says nothing about Launch Editions. Just what will be available 'at launch'. You'll note that for no car manufacturer is every vehicle available 'at launch' a 'launch edition' (insert 'first edition', 'autobiography',or whatever other special nomenclature manufacturer's use).

 

[stynes]

The language in my actual confirmation email is worded slightly differently but says the same thing...
"Production will begin in 2020. Fully-equipped vehicles with the highest performance level and largest battery pack will enter production first. Our 180 kWh and 135 kWh packs will be available at launch with the 105 kWh to follow in 2021."

I hate to be pedantic, but that email says nothing about Launch Editions. Just what will be available 'at launch'.

I don't think the point is whether it says "launch edition" or "at launch." The point is they've pivoted, which I think we all understand, and are now doing something different. So to insist they're not pivoting and never indicated that the max packs would be available "on day 1" (to avoid using the term "launch" and confuse anyone), just simply isn't accurate. Also, back in 2018, there was no mention of Launch Edition or Adventure, Explore, etc.

 

[Inkedsphynx]

I don't think the point is whether it says "launch edition" or "at launch." The point is they've pivoted, which I think we all understand, and are now doing something different. So to insist they're not pivoting and never indicated that the max packs would be available "on day 1" (to avoid using the term "launch" and confuse anyone), just simply isn't accurate.

I never claimed Max Packs weren't indicated to be available on day 1. I said they've never committed to producing LE Max Packs. Find me some text that says differently.

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