BMW and Mercedes pulling back on Level 3 autonomy

[narmstrong79]

Agree and some are keen to spread FUD that somehow the R2 being built this year is half baked and will have massive across the board updates within 12 months the which is ludicrous.

It's "perceived value" Rivian should never have announced the lidar and the Gen 3 hardware. I get it. They wanted to have a stock bump, but they could have just announced the autonomy and then got a future bump when they were ready to release the hardware. It's a bit of an "Osborne effect" it's one of their bigger blunders

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[Budman]

I believe the weak demand part. I keep asking friends and relatives about it and I’ve found only one person who really wants full self driving.

 

[Zoidz]

Tesla failing to achieve L3 was actually 4D chess you guys. Now it’s been proven that no one wants it anyway, so they were right all along not to provide it! Also cameras better than LiDAR if I didn’t mention that.

No. Tesla failing to achieve L3 was not 4D chess. They might have thought it was 4D chess, but they didn't realize they were actually playing 2D checkers in a 3D world.

 

[1stPlace]

This article is the most bloggy blog I've ever seen. More webpage ads than text. More slant than facts. Tesla will be stuck at Level 2+++++ until LIDAR is brought in, at least. Too many edge cases in poor weather and visibility conditions.

I used to think regulations would hold it up regardless, but if Rivian pays a manosphere influencer enough, maybe we can get an executive order to allow level 3 sooner.

 

[captainjp]

No. Tesla failing to achieve L3 was not 4D chess. They might have thought it was 4D chess, but they didn't realize they were actually playing 2D checkers in a 3D world.

Yup.

 

[narmstrong79]

I believe the weak demand part. I keep asking friends and relatives about it and I’ve found only one person who really wants full self driving.

FSD is is really cool, The fact that the tech is to the level to do the things it does is amazing. That said.. it's still a gimmick, it adds very little real world benefits. I have a buddy who bought a Tesla as his first EV, he loves it finally understands why I've been driving EVs so. He never shuts up about FSD, he became a Tesla fanboy hardcore like the nerds on twitter. But his best use case for FSD , is he can have a few extra drinks at the bar and let the car take him home.

When it reaches and has full approval to be true FSD, where the automaker takes full liability i can see this bringing true value for those who have historically not been able to own or operate a vehicle in the past and relied on services to get them around, Think elderly. Physically or mentally impaired people etc.... I would love to get my 83 year old dad intro a true FSD car as he shouldn't be driving as much as he does.

Being able to send the car home when going to the airport or event to not pay for parking would be value, i guess, but even then is that worth $100's a month in a subscription. I see why FSD has hype, but I don't understand the thought that its a must have feature.

 

[electruck]

FSD is is really cool, The fact that the tech is to the level to do the things it does is amazing. That said.. it's still a gimmick, it adds very little real world benefits. I have a buddy who bought a Tesla as his first EV, he loves it finally understands why I've been driving EVs so. He never shuts up about FSD, he became a Tesla fanboy hardcore like the nerds on twitter. But his best use case for FSD , is he can have a few extra drinks at the bar and let the car take him home.

When it reaches and has full approval to be true FSD, where the automaker takes full liability i can see this bringing true value for those who have historically not been able to own or operate a vehicle in the past and relied on services to get them around, Think elderly. Physically or mentally impaired people etc.... I would love to get my 83 year old dad intro a true FSD car as he shouldn't be driving as much as he does.

Being able to send the car home when going to the airport or event to not pay for parking would be value, i guess, but even then is that worth $100's a month in a subscription. I see why FSD has hype, but I don't understand the thought that its a must have feature.

I mostly agree. I would love for my visually impaired wife to be able to get around on her own without being subject to being left standing on the curb by an Uber/Lyft driver who (illegally) refuses the ride because of her Seeing Eye dog. Personally though, I will never turn over the steering wheel until I'm too old to drive myself.

However, even though I can't relate to this myself, I think there are a ton of people out there who do not enjoy driving in the slightest and would love to be able to delegate that stressful task to the vehicle. Or others who might prefer to sit in the back seat with their laptop and work during their commute.

 

[narmstrong79]

I mostly agree. I would love for my visually impaired wife to be able to get around on her own without being subject to being left standing on the curb by an Uber/Lyft driver who (illegally) refuses the ride because of her Seeing Eye dog. Personally though, I will never turn over the steering wheel until I'm too old to drive myself.

However, even though I can't relate to this myself, I think there are a ton of people out there who do not enjoy driving in the slightest and would love to be able to delegate that stressful task to the vehicle. Or others who might prefer to sit in the back seat with their laptop and work during their commute.

I get it, I just don't see a huge group of people who want to add their (unpaid) commute time to their work schedule. I find driving relaxing, if other can use FSD to relax, great! . We'll see what the market decides, it's being positioned as life changing and for the average person I don't see that. It's all hype right now.

 

[krb1183]

FSD is is really cool, The fact that the tech is to the level to do the things it does is amazing. That said.. it's still a gimmick, it adds very little real world benefits. I have a buddy who bought a Tesla as his first EV, he loves it finally understands why I've been driving EVs so. He never shuts up about FSD, he became a Tesla fanboy hardcore like the nerds on twitter. But his best use case for FSD , is he can have a few extra drinks at the bar and let the car take him home.

When it reaches and has full approval to be true FSD, where the automaker takes full liability i can see this bringing true value for those who have historically not been able to own or operate a vehicle in the past and relied on services to get them around, Think elderly. Physically or mentally impaired people etc.... I would love to get my 83 year old dad intro a true FSD car as he shouldn't be driving as much as he does.

Being able to send the car home when going to the airport or event to not pay for parking would be value, i guess, but even then is that worth $100's a month in a subscription. I see why FSD has hype, but I don't understand the thought that its a must have feature.

I get that, but even with Rivian UHF i've realized what i consider pretty significant value on longer road trips or even freeway driving on shorter trips. Especially from my house when heading up north to visit family. It is amazing how much mental burden is removed from me just cruising up the 65. I can sing with the family, feel like i can stay more engaged in conversation, while trusting the vehicle to manage speed/breaking among freeway traffic. We can put in long road days and i don't feel so exhausted/mentally drained at the end of the day. However, even that 'value' to me i wasn't sure was worth 2500 autonomy+ subscription, so i let the trial lapse. However, after about a week both my wife and i missed it so much we decided to pay for it. It is really hard to quantify the value, i do agree there, maybe i can do some testing with my Hume band to compare stress levels using UHF vs not. lol

 

[narmstrong79]

I get that, but even with Rivian UHF i've realized what i consider pretty significant value on longer road trips or even freeway driving on shorter trips. Especially from my house when heading up north to visit family. It is amazing how much mental burden is removed from me just cruising up the 65. I can sing with the family, feel like i can stay more engaged in conversation, while trusting the vehicle to manage speed/breaking among freeway traffic. We can put in long road days and i don't feel so exhausted/mentally drained at the end of the day. However, even that 'value' to me i wasn't sure was worth 2500 autonomy+ subscription, so i let the trial lapse. However, after about a week both my wife and i missed it so much we decided to pay for it. It is really hard to quantify the value, i do agree there, maybe i can do some testing with my Hume band to compare stress levels using UHF vs not. lol

I agree, having good ADAS is key to bettering a long road-trip or even just for typical high way driving. I just don't know that i want or see a need for FSD. UHF, Bluecruise , supercruise are the sweet spot in my opinion, which is why i was so unhappy with with how Rivian overpromised and abandoned Driver+ so quickly for gen 1 owners. Comma AI has fixed that for me.

 

[norivian]

I just need Rivian’s A+ to the nth power.

Rivian, just keep improving your Autonomy+ software as far as your hardware can handle. A+++++++++++++++++++...

 

[electruck]

...while trusting the vehicle to manage speed/breaking among freeway traffic....

See, I am nowhere close to trusting my family's life with the current state of autonomy and that lack of trust actually doubles my stress levels when letting the vehicle drive. Not only do I need to worry about what the traffic around me is doing but I also have to second guess everything the vehicle might do in case I might need to take over. For me, personally, it is farrrrr less stressful to just do the driving myself. I will take advantage of it for short periods to allow me to more safely open a drink bottle or something but then I resume full control ASAP.

I still wrestle with what it will actually take for companies to prove to me that I can trust their autonomy solution....

 

[krb1183]

See, I am nowhere close to trusting my family's life with the current state of autonomy and that lack of trust actually doubles my stress levels when letting the vehicle drive. Not only do I need to worry about what the traffic around me is doing but I also have to second guess everything the vehicle might do in case I might need to take over. For me, personally, it is farrrrr less stressful to just do the driving myself. I will take advantage of it for short periods to allow me to more safely open a drink bottle or something but then I resume full control ASAP.

I still wrestle with what it will actually take for companies to prove to me that I can trust their autonomy solution....

Yeah I get it, and it's taken me some time to get there. I've noticed incremental braking and speed control improvements so I do tend to trust it more and more. There are some situations especially locally where I'm winding down a narrow lane mountain road where I hover my hand around the wheel and focus heavily on what the vehicle is doing, but those are specific instances. In my head I think let's see how the vehicle handles it and see if I notice improvement over time. But on the 65 heading from Huntsville up to Nashville for instance I trust it pretty well and it'll be in UHF for 2 hours.
But I definitely understand and can relate.

 

[SwampNut]

I read the whole article. Twice. I really wanted to pick it apart bit by bit, but I can't. It's just all bullshit. Just crap in every paragraph. Mercedes' contention that it's the fault of the roads is absolute bullshit. Here's a video of me being driven for hours on dirt roads, WITH A TRAILER, and having no problems.



Common claim: "Cars can't drive without stripes."

"Here's me doing two hours of dirt roads with a trailer."

Your move, Mercedes. Fuckers.

Here's why they had to do it. Last week I spent a couple hours in a borrowed $130k 2026 Mercedes S-class. The ADAS was absolute garbage. Mostly unusable, and I spent more time babysitting it than just driving. It was a nice drive otherwise; twin turbo V8 and amazing active suspension. The interior was horrifyingly ugly however, and the fucking buttons. Jesus. So many of them, and SO DAMN HARD TO USE. There was no tactility to the steering wheel buttons. No way to feel that you were changing cruise control speed. Yes, that's right, you have to LOOK to change speeds. WTF? It looks like a $25k Kia inside, and the buttons are crappier.

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