R2 w/ LiDAR, 19-inch wheels spied

[mdpa]

Not sure how this analogy makes sense. I operate the chainsaw. I shoot the gun. I do NOT drive the car. I am not operating anything. Liability rests with the operator of just about anything and everything.

Can you provide a few examples of companies that manufacture products that guarantee 100% liability and include insurance?

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[Jeremy3292]

As others have stated, the pace of improvement is so fast that any testing older than 90 days is already outdated. I've been getting updates almost every two weeks since I bought my Y in September.

Tesla just started testing "streaks" a few weeks ago, but I suspect by the end of Summer this scenario will be more common.

I use FSD every day. Latest V14. AI4. No one is saying it isn’t good. The point is it supervised and on you to pay attention. That’s not a self driving car. Thats not autonomy. That’s a very good set of ADAS features.

 

[tgrick]

I'm on a RIVIAN forums...I really don't care to see or read about a car I'm not ever going to support...NO TESLA!

 

[mdpa]

I'm on a RIVIAN forums...I really don't care to see or read about a car I'm not ever going to support...NO TESLA!

I wouldn't have even brought up the competition, but it seems like other brands are compared, including Volvo, Scout, and BMW. Seems like the strongest competitor should be included in any respective comparisons. Not sure what you have against other American owned and manufactured brands.

 

[EVtowing]

Tesla also went vision only and continues to lead in autonomy, so while I'm sure LIDAR will help push Rivian forward, its clearly not required to match Tesla. I do wonder if part of Tesla's decision to go vision only was because they already had so much training data from their LIDAR-equipped models and didn't need more.

As @srkz noted Tesla only had a few not-for-sale Lidar vehicles. Elon’s decision to go with vision only was originally because he said Lidar added too much cost and he hated the look of Lidar. He grandly proclaimed a decade ago Tesla could achieve L4-5 with vision only and he was wrong, repeatedly. Tesla is currently at L2 and has been stuck there for many, many years.

And Tesla does not “lead in autonomy” by any stretch of the imagination. Waymo clearly does. And Waymo uses multiple Lidars and radars as well as cameras.

Elon gets fixated on achieving a goal a certain way and despite repeated failures refuses to modify his views. A vision only approach will never achieve L4-5 because cameras cannot handle bad weather.

 

[r2fb]

As @srkz noted Tesla only had a few not-for-sale Lidar vehicles. Elon’s decision to go with vision only was originally because he said Lidar added too much cost and he hated the look of Lidar. He grandly proclaimed a decade ago Tesla could achieve L4-5 with vision only and he was wrong, repeatedly. Tesla is currently at L2 and has been stuck there for many, many years.

And Tesla does not “lead in autonomy” by any stretch of the imagination. Waymo clearly does. And Waymo uses multiple Lidars and radars as well as cameras.

Elon gets fixated on achieving a goal a certain way and despite repeated failures refuses to modify his views. A vision only approach will never achieve L4-5 because cameras cannot handle bad weather.

One correction, Tesla definitely leads in supervised autonomy. The problem with that is, 90% of what people want is just adaptive cruise with lane keeping and following roads on highways and there is no way to do that in a new Tesla unless you pay a subscription whereas many other cars include it as either standard or a one time option pack.

 

[runwithscissors]

One correction, Tesla definitely leads in supervised autonomy. The problem with that is, 90% of what people want is just adaptive cruise with lane keeping and following roads on highways and there is no way to do that in a new Tesla unless you pay a subscription whereas many other cars include it as either standard or a one time option pack.

*Until they try FSD for the first time. I thought I only wanted adaptive cruise with lane keeping but was completely blow away with FSD because NY traffic absolutely sucks. I tried it months ago with a friends M3 and I have a hard time believing Rivian will match them anytime soon.

 

[r2fb]

*Until they try FSD for the first time. I thought I only wanted adaptive cruise with lane keeping but was completely blow away with FSD because NY traffic absolutely sucks. I tried it months ago with a friends M3 and I have a hard time believing Rivian will match them anytime soon.

Your anecdote does not match broad reality where FSD trials, even on V14, have shown a 1% conversion rate.

I have a MY with HW4, had the v14 trial this January.
Let me tell you the ways it "fails" but people gloss over it since it's not an actual accident and they bypass it by hitting the gas:
1. Pothole avoidance, doesn't exist.
2. Does not know where my driveway is and tries to park in the neighbors half the time
3. Lets EVERYONE through in traffic even in Mad Max mode.
4. Since it does not have the knowledge of the roads I travel, it will happily change to a left lane, where 95% of the time there will be a car waiting to turn left when lights go green and there are no dedicated turn lanes or arrow lights or delayed green usually where I live. Then you're stuck while cars pass you on the right lane.
5. Anytime it sees a pedestrian on the sidewalk, assumes they want to cross the road and slows down.
6. Light just turned yellow with 10-20 feet left? SLAMS the brakes instead of going through.

It was so aggravating that after a few days I stopped using it, too many interventions so I rather just drive myself. In the highways it was good but so is everyone else including basic autosteer in pre-2026 Teslas. Which is exactly why they removed it, it was good enough so people weren't getting the ridiculously expensive fsd subscription.

 

[runwithscissors]

Your anecdote does not match broad reality where FSD trials, even on V14, have shown a 1% conversion rate.

I have a MY with HW4, had the v14 trial this January.
Let me tell you the ways it "fails" but people gloss over it since it's not an actual accident and they bypass it by hitting the gas:
1. Pothole avoidance, doesn't exist.
2. Does not know where my driveway is and tries to park in the neighbors half the time
3. Lets EVERYONE through in traffic even in Mad Max mode.
4. Since it does not have the knowledge of the roads I travel, it will happily change to a left lane, where 95% of the time there will be a car waiting to turn left when lights go green and there are no dedicated turn lanes or arrow lights or delayed green usually where I live. Then you're stuck while cars pass you on the right lane.
5. Anytime it sees a pedestrian on the sidewalk, assumes they want to cross the road and slows down.
6. Light just turned yellow with 10-20 feet left? SLAMS the brakes instead of going through.

It was so aggravating that after a few days I stopped using it, too many interventions so I rather just drive myself. In the highways it was good but so is everyone else including basic autosteer in pre-2026 Teslas. Which is exactly why they removed it, it was good enough so people weren't getting the ridiculously expensive fsd subscription.

I'm sure your points are accurate as you have used it way more than me. I only experienced it for less than an hour, months ago and have a Gen 1 so nothing to compare it to. I just don't believe Rivian will ever catch Tesla in any meaningful EV area due to the many years of experience and talent that they have. Sit it in a Cybertruck for 5 minutes and listen to music then compare it to a Gen 1 or Gen 2 with "premium" audio and you'll realize how garbage the Rivian system is. They went from Meridian to their in-house junk and tried to spin it as a way to control the experience and update it over time but it was just a cost cutting strategy. Cybertruck air suspension is so much faster and has locking differentials. I wouldn't want a Cybertruck but man does it have features I'd love. Everything is cost-cutting for Rivan now (and I understand why) which is why I'll happily hold on to my overengineered tank of a Gen 1 even with it's terrible suspension and potato cameras. I really enjoy the Bosch motor whine with quad motors but may consider a Gen 3 R1 lease years from now only beause of the insane repair costs. Comma.ai is something I may look into but would need help with the install of it because I don't have the cajones to do it myself lol

 

[sparked]

*Until they try FSD for the first time. I thought I only wanted adaptive cruise with lane keeping but was completely blow away with FSD because NY traffic absolutely sucks. I tried it months ago with a friends M3 and I have a hard time believing Rivian will match them anytime soon.

There are already Chinese companies that can match Tesla with FSD. And we're saying Rivian can't compete when Chinese companies can?

The US is a protected market now where we don't always get the best things anymore.

 

[mdpa]

As I said, liability rests with the operator. If I kill someone with a gun or a car, I am responsible. If your “self driving” car crashes and kills someone it’s either on me or it’s not. Hence why Tesla goes out of their way now to say “supervised” bc their lawyers got smart. If I have to pay attention it’s not self driving. Pretty simple stuff really.

So you couldn't come up with any examples? Hence, my comparison. For the foreseeble future Tesla may rate FSD as supervised (that we agree on), but it is already 97% on the way to unsupervised capabilities. Mo

Your anecdote does not match broad reality where FSD trials, even on V14, have shown a 1% conversion rate.

I have a MY with HW4, had the v14 trial this January.
Let me tell you the ways it "fails" but people gloss over it since it's not an actual accident and they bypass it by hitting the gas:
1. Pothole avoidance, doesn't exist.
2. Does not know where my driveway is and tries to park in the neighbors half the time
3. Lets EVERYONE through in traffic even in Mad Max mode.
4. Since it does not have the knowledge of the roads I travel, it will happily change to a left lane, where 95% of the time there will be a car waiting to turn left when lights go green and there are no dedicated turn lanes or arrow lights or delayed green usually where I live. Then you're stuck while cars pass you on the right lane.
5. Anytime it sees a pedestrian on the sidewalk, assumes they want to cross the road and slows down.
6. Light just turned yellow with 10-20 feet left? SLAMS the brakes instead of going through.

It was so aggravating that after a few days I stopped using it, too many interventions so I rather just drive myself. In the highways it was good but so is everyone else including basic autosteer in pre-2026 Teslas. Which is exactly why they removed it, it was good enough so people weren't getting the ridiculously expensive fsd subscription.

Are you saying there is a better system available in the US than Tesla FSD? I just used it to go from Maryland to Myrtle Beach and back, returning today. 99% FSD, automatically parked in the charger stalls and only had to make (1) stop to charge on the way back home today. Started at the hotel by pushing a button.

 

[EVtowing]

I just don't believe Rivian will ever catch Tesla in any meaningful EV area due to the many years of experience and talent that they have.

It’s not that simple. Elon is fixated on a vision-only system and that has serious limitations in poor weather conditions, and there are always going to be edge cases that vision-only can’t solve.

Rivian has taken a smarter approach and is using not only many cameras but multiple radars and soon forward-facing Lidar which will enable it to handle poor weather and more accurately evaluate its surroundings.

Waymo‘s radar and Lidar means it is more capable than the current Tesla FSD, and the safety stats prove it.

 

[Jeremy3292]

So you couldn't come up with any examples? Hence, my comparison. For the foreseeble future Tesla may rate FSD as supervised (that we agree on), but it is already 97% on the way to unsupervised capabilities. Mo


Are you saying there is a better system available in the US than Tesla FSD? I just used it to go from Maryland to Myrtle Beach and back, returning today. 99% FSD, automatically parked in the charger stalls and only had to make (1) stop to charge on the way back home today. Started at the hotel by pushing a button.

Well today I had a critical disengagement on the highway coming back from the lake in the rain going 35 mph. TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY. So yeah it’s not there yet.

 

[Zathras]

There are already Chinese companies that can match Tesla with FSD. And we're saying Rivian can't compete when Chinese companies can?

The US is a protected market now where we don't always get the best things anymore.

Kind of like saying 21 year old gymnasts can do better routines than 10-year-olds. Rivian's just getting started and they'll have point-to-point by the end of the year. Within a few years they'll have level 3 and then 4. Not sure I care about 4. But I have zero doubt they will blow Tesla out of the water. And Chinese cars have their own set of issues right how (putting each other out of business in a government-controlled environment). Your assumption that Rivian can not compete is far from a sure bet.

 

[Zathras]

I'll likely wait for the LiDAR version. I've been burned by Tesla HW claims in the past. Missing out on the free lifetime Autonomy+ is a negative, though.

Has Rivian confirmed whether that is transferable if you sell the vehicle?

Yes, they said it goes with the vehicle. Not the seller.

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