Devils Advocate

[Mysta]

I've been trying to go back and forth on these posts - some jokes and some serious. And I looked at my Model S LR order that's 'on hold' I got it pretty early so it's a low price(that they're honoring) but still it's 94k. It says 375 miles of range(But we know it'll only get really like 300), it'll charge well and it has a great network, pretty great interface. But if you look at most other capabilities, that's where it stops. It has a hatch which means it has good room but not same as Rivian, but it can't really go off road. And it's the same price as my R1T. I knew we were a little naïve to think Rivian would maintain pricing, maybe I was naïve to think they'd honor it. But when it comes down to it, it's a pretty advanced car. Nothing else besides McLaren has the suspension R1T/R1S has, nothing else has quad motors(or very little if so). Not arguing it doesn't suck to have happen. But likely there was no other way. They are pivoting to produce limited # of higher cost cars and will push for the dual motor variant later in higher #s. Some of these things they increased price on will for sure be aftermarket options. Look at 3 didn't have power trunk for longest time.

This won't soften the blow I'm sure but just some rambling thoughts.

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[RivianNowPlz]

As a Model S owner myself.. the Tesla is faster, better range, better tech, way more features, more practical for a daily driver/commuter, likely far more safer to drive in winter climate, better brand identity, I could go on.

I was buying the Rivian for everything *else* that the Rivian does that my MS can't and/or I wouldn't want to do in my 37PP Raptor, e.x. Towing, camping with family, road trips, light off roading, and the luxury of buying something.. different.

I appreciate the ramble, but it's just super unfortunate what happened today. Rivian will suffer for it on the market, they will lose 30%+ of their preorders, and will become a niche brand vs planet changer. People will not get programmed to buy $100k vehicles with mortgages on them.

 

[Craigins]

Also to add on to the devil's advocate.

The original price, that MANY of us bought in at was 75k starting. Then the cybertruck stunt forced them to lower their target to 67.5k.

So really, they are just going back to their original price point when first announced.

 

[Mysta]

As a Model S owner myself.. the Tesla is faster, better range, better tech, way more features, more practical for a daily driver/commuter, likely far more safer to drive in winter climate, better brand identity, I could go on.

I was buying the Rivian for everything *else* that the Rivian does that my MS can't and/or I wouldn't want to do in my 37PP Raptor, e.x. Towing, camping with family, road trips, light off roading, and the luxury of buying something.. different.

I appreciate the ramble, but it's just super unfortunate what happened today. Rivian will suffer for it on the market, they will lose 30%+ of their preorders, and will become a niche brand vs planet changer. People will not get programmed to buy $100k vehicles with mortgages on them.

Yeah I've owned a Performance Model X, Model 3, had a Plaid order etc. I'm familiar with them. I assure you Tesla had it's issues too. I was there. They originally were taking like 5k for deposit of Model S and only had like several thousand deposits and said it started at 49k, I'm pretty sure it has never seen that price. In fact it was in the high 100ks then they randomly knocked off like 60k off the price. So people that had paid 160k(early loyal buyers) had their value diminish over night.

 

[smiesguy]

Also to add on to the devil's advocate.

The original price, that MANY of us bought in at was 75k starting. Then the cybertruck stunt forced them to lower their target to 67.5k.

So really, they are just going back to their original price point when first announced.

Agree with you. From the LA Auto show they were quoting 90K range for top range model.

 

[RivianNowPlz]

Yeah I've owned a Performance Model X, Model 3, had a Plaid order etc. I'm familiar with them. I assure you Tesla had it's issues too. I was there. They originally were taking like 5k for deposit of Model S and only had like several thousand deposits and said it started at 49k, I'm pretty sure it has never seen that price. In fact it was in the high 100ks then they randomly knocked off like 60k off the price. So people that had paid 160k(early loyal buyers) had their value diminish over night.

I don’t think you do. I was an original 2012 MS owner, have upgraded 3 times since. You could indeed buy a $60k roughly MS with the smallest battery pack but they quickly did away with it if memory serves. Further, Tesla always honored their prices that had deposits prior to increases on their website. I'm sure things may be different now since the pandemic, I haven't bought a Tesla since 2019 but regardless, this is a bait and switch, Tesla didn't do anything like this to us early adopters.

 

[Forager]

Also to add on to the devil's advocate.

The original price, that MANY of us bought in at was 75k starting. Then the cybertruck stunt forced them to lower their target to 67.5k.

So really, they are just going back to their original price point when first announced.

So what you are saying is they dropped the price to lure in orders and mislead investors for their IPO and then raise their price before they actually had to deliver on it?

 

[Mysta]

I don’t think you do. I was an original 2012 MS owner, have upgraded 3 times since. You could indeed buy a $60k roughly MS with the smallest battery pack but they quickly did away with it if memory serves. Further, Tesla always honored their prices that had deposits prior to increases on their website. I'm sure things may be different now since the pandemic, I haven't bought a Tesla since 2019 but regardless, this is a bait and switch, Tesla didn't do anything like this to us early adopters.

Fair - they definitely have honored prices(exactly like I said in OP) - but I don't think they would have if they were in their Model 3 ramp up during pandemic. Elon specifically said they almost failed as a company at that time. And not far off their original call(90k) for R1t/R1s

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

Speaking of devil's advocates and silver linings, @Administrator probably paid the bills for the site for the entire year with the ad revenue we've driven today. I'd bet community engagement is at an all time high!

 

[astonius]

The reactions have way more to do with psychology and loyalty than value. I don't think you'll find a person on this forum who believed the old prices were exorbitant. Consensus was that Rivian's product offerings were a bargain at the previously-advertised price estimates (black wheels notwithstanding).

I can look at the updated prices in isolation and think "yes, this seems like a fair price considering what is being offered," and for all the reasons you mentioned. There's really no direct competitor to the R1T (yet) and even more-so for the R1S.

The issue is the abruptness and the amount of price increase. Rivian had to have known for a while now that their bottom-line was in trouble, and a price increase was inevitable. Meanwhile they are telling LE holders we are incredibly close to delivery to build our excitement while maintaining their unsustainable estimated prices on the configurator, even for new orders as recent as today.

If we see deliveries being made and no mention of a price increase then logically we would assume our pricing is solid. Get us excited about imminent deliveries so we're already "bought in" then raise the prices 20% for everyone with the flip of a switch. That's all psychological. It is preying on the mental buy-in of their longstanding reservation holders, squeezing them to make up for their inability to plan and communicate clear expectations for pricing increases much sooner.

That is a shitty thing to do, especially for a company whose brand is fledgling. This will absolutely tarnish their reputation, and rightfully so.

 

[Mysta]

The reactions have way more to do with psychology and loyalty than value. I don't think you'll find a person on this forum who believed the old prices were exorbitant. Consensus was that Rivian's product offerings were a bargain at the previously-advertised price estimates (black wheels notwithstanding).

I can look at the updated prices in isolation and think "yes, this seems like a fair price considering what is being offered," and for all the reasons you mentioned. There's really no direct competitor to the R1T (yet) and even more-so for the R1S.

The issue is the abruptness and the amount of price increase. Rivian had to have known for a while now that their bottom-line was in trouble, and a price increase was inevitable. Meanwhile they are telling LE holders we are incredibly close to delivery to build our excitement while maintaining their unsustainable estimated prices on the configurator, even for new orders as recent as today.

If we see deliveries being made and no mention of a price increase then logically we would assume our pricing is solid. Get us excited about imminent deliveries so we're already "bought in" then raise the prices 20% for everyone with the flip of a switch. That's all psychological. It is preying on the mental buy-in of their longstanding reservation holders, squeezing them to make up for their inability to plan and communicate clear expectations for pricing increases much sooner.

That is a shitty thing to do, especially for a company whose brand is fledgling. This will absolutely tarnish their reputation, and rightfully so.

Well that's what I mean, the line between shitty and naïve is thin. Is it 'shitty' if they will actually fail of they don't do it? Is the right move to say sorry guys here's your money back we can't sell it at the price we promised? I guess maybe they could have done incremental price changes but maybe their naivety again just made them think this supply chain stuff would end.

I'm picturing them looking at a BoM and it slowly increasing over the past year. to probably 50% more than what it was at least.

 

[astonius]

Well that's what I mean, the line between shitty and naïve is thin. Is it 'shitty' if they will actually fail of they don't do it? Is the right move to say sorry guys here's your money back we can't sell it at the price we promised? I guess maybe they could have done incremental price changes but maybe their naivety again just made them think this supply chain stuff would end.

I'm picturing them looking at a BoM and it slowly increasing over the past year. to probably 50% more than what it was at least.

We didn't wake up today to high inflation. All the signs have been there for the past year. Other manufacturers have handled this in a much better manner. It's not as if this is uncharted territory. To use the obvious example of Tesla, they did a handful of smaller increases over a period of time and honored the pricing quoted for existing orders. That is a perfectly acceptable model for price increases.

 

[Mysta]

We didn't wake up today to high inflation. All the signs have been there for the past year. Other manufacturers have handled this in a much better manner. It's not as if this is uncharted territory. To use the obvious example of Tesla, they did a handful of smaller increases over a period of time and honored the pricing quoted for existing orders. That is a perfectly acceptable model for price increases.

Hmm I wouldn't say people handled it better. The land rover defenders are like 50k-80k markup. Cars are being shipped with random features missing etc. There's a lot of things people don't like but they're established automakers so they have more cushion.

 

[Tim-in-CA]

Speaking of devil's advocates and silver linings, @Administrator probably paid the bills for the site for the entire year with the ad revenue we've driven today. I'd bet community engagement is at an all time high!

I was waiting for the site to crash given the fever pitch of posting/ranting!

 

[astonius]

Hmm I wouldn't say people handled it better. The land rover defenders are like 50k-80k markup. Cars are being shipped with random features missing etc. There's a lot of things people don't like but they're established automakers so they have more cushion.

Don't conflate dealer markups with manufacturer price increases.

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