Do I really need the Max Pack?

[SANZC02]

6 years and 60,000 miles on Tesla S 85D. 1% loss in full charge battery mileage.

A second sample and this is with mostly supercharging, rarely charge to 100% usually in the 90% range.

5 Years 45K miles on a Model S 75 ~4% loss from original

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[sevengroove]

6 years and 60,000 miles on Tesla S 85D. 1% loss in full charge battery mileage.

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge here, but does your 1% loss figure include any improvements that Tesla may have made to range via software over those 6 years? Or is it purely a degradation loss?

 

[Gshenderson]

A second sample and this is with mostly supercharging, rarely charge to 100% usually in the 90% range.

5 Years 45K miles on a Model S 75 ~4% loss from original

I only Supercharge on long trips. Maybe 10 times a year. The rest is L2, and only to 80%.

 

[Gshenderson]

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge here, but does your 1% loss figure include any improvements that Tesla may have made to range via software over those 6 years? Or is it purely a degradation loss?

Possibly. I’m just going by the original full charge mileage was 272, and now it’s 268.

 

[ajdelange]

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge here, but does your 1% loss figure include any improvements that Tesla may have made to range via software over those 6 years? Or is it purely a degradation loss?

Could be either. The capacity of the battery is the amount of energy it takes to move the voltage of the battery from Ve, the empty voltage, to Vf the full voltage. As the battery ages some lithium is lost to the irreversible formation of compounds with the SEI. As there is less lithium available for charging (moving to the anode) it takes less current to get all the available lithium into the anode and the capacity goes down. Tesla can increase the range of the car by increasing Vf or decreasing Ve or both. If they did that (there are good reasons not to) the system would report a higher level of charge to fill and available range would go up.

If Tesla figures out some way to, say, increase inverter efficiency by 1% then the rated Wh/mi for the vehicle would go down 1% and the full battery capacity reported in Wh/mi would go up 1%. Battery capacity in terms of ampere hours or kWh would not go up.

 

[skyote]

Could be either. The capacity of the battery is the amount of energy it takes to move the voltage of the battery from Ve, the empty voltage, to Vf the full voltage. As the battery ages some lithium is lost to the irreversible formation of compounds with the SEI. As there is less lithium available for charging (moving to the anode) it takes less current to get all the available lithium into the anode and the capacity goes down. Tesla can increase the range of the car by increasing Vf or decreasing Ve or both. If they did that (there are good reasons not to) the system would report a higher level of charge to fill and available range would go up.

He was trying to isolate degradation. If Tesla increased access to additional capacity (by decreasing buffer) to add range, then 1% is not an accurate reflection of the degradation.

 

[MBuster]

My Bolt only showed guess to range do you actually drive the higher and lower numbers at different times to know it holds less? My Bolt would guess numbers up and down at different times.

 

[ajdelange]

Sorry, trye degradation?

 

[skyote]

Sorry, trye degradation?

Edited - *the degradation

 

[Don]

I’ve been struggling to decide whether a 300+ mile range is enough, or if I really need to spend the extra $10k on the Max Pack. I started my EV journey with a VW e-Golf that had a 125 mile range. Then I recently bought a Chevy Bolt that over doubled that range to 259 miles. After a month in the Bolt, I’m finding that I haven’t found any driving situation leaving me wanting more range.
But part of me says the 400+ mile range of the Max Pack will help “future proof” the R1T I have a deposit on. As the battery degrades over time, it would still have enough range to do anything I may ask of it. My goal is to have the R1T as my forever vehicle. If I get the 300 mi pack, perhaps the cost of replacement will be inexpensive enough down the road that spending an extra $10k now doesn’t make sense.
Any thoughts from the collective to help with my decision?

If you’re undecided how do you think I feel? The closest thing Ive ever had that’s an EV is a Ryobi electric riding mower that gives me 4.5 hours of driving.?
i configured the MaxPak in figuring that the battery pak will lose its efficiency as time goes on. Also, I’m in New England with hills, cold temps with snow. Besides, I like redundancy.

 

[ajdelange]

He was trying to isolate degradation. If Tesla increased access to additional capacity (by decreasing buffer) to add range, then 1% is not an accurate reflection of the degradation.

If they move the boundaries that makes more energy available to the user. Is this an augmentation of the battery capacity? Yes, 1 guess it is. You used to be able to get 100 kWh. Now you can get 102. But of course the battery has really continued to degrade. It is just that they have figured out how to make its effective capacity greater. Matter of definition, really.

A little concerned that you mentioned 1%, That number went with an increase in inverter efficiency, not moving the E and F markers. Is this increasing the battery capacity? In terms of now being able to drive more miles? Yes. In terms of the battery holding more A-h? No.

 

[GPowers]

My Bolt only showed guess to range do you actually drive the higher and lower numbers at different times to know it holds less? My Bolt would guess numbers up and down at different times.

On the Nissan Leaf it was affectionally called the Guess-O-meeter.

 

[Don]

Drag strip performance for the 130kWh pack is claimed to be the best out of the configurations.
That pretty much sold me. Then again, I'm on the wait list for the 3 motor CyberTruck, and the 1000HP variant of the Hummer.

You buying all three?

 

[Don]

My concern isn't 300 miles vs 400 miles.

My concern is what if I need to go a distance where a couple of the following are also true:

1. It's really f-in hot
2. It's really f-in cold
3. I'm towing a big+heavy load
4. I'm increasing in elevation a significant amount

We know, from other EV's, that extreme temperatures reduce range. Cold weather, in particular, can drop range by 50%. Heating the cabin uses a lot of power. Heating the battery packs uses a lot of power. Cold increases losses due to friction. And batteries are less efficient when cold. To add insult to injury, charging speeds can be reduced when cold, too.

We've heard that towing can reduce range buy up to 50%, independent of other factors. Imagine if it's cold and you're towing? That 400 mile range may be 100 miles. And since we don't actually drive until completely empty, you may only go 80 miles (charging to 100% and leaving 20 mile range as an "empty" buffer).

And we all know that going up a mountain increases consumption.

Yup, we need to talk real world. One thing is for sure, when ICE vehicles are sold to the public the MPG listed is attained under pristine conditions, everyone knows that bc they get diff results when they get it home. Why would Rivian‘s range testing be any different? With ICE vehicles it’s accepted as a norm.

 

[Don]

If your #1 priority for a new vehicle is mind bending acceleration, there's places to look besides pickup trucks ?

That said... I'm not remotely sure what vehicles you're used to or what you've driven before, but there's 2 points here to dig deeper:

1 - Have you ever driven a vehicle with a sub-4s 0-60?
10 years ago, sub-4s 0-60 was supercar territory. Now midrange performance EVs hit it routinely.

Your specific experiences with acceleration might make the following NOT apply to you... But it is extremely likely in the population overall that you've never driven anything with a sub-4s 0-60, and even likely you've never experienced that even as a passenger.

If you're in that large group of the population I defined above, the odds of you being able to tell 3.0s 0-60 apart from 3.2s are extremely low.

2 - Have you ever driven a midrange performance EV or faster EV?

The instant torque from 0rpm is insane.

While only Teslas, Porsches, and a scant few others go sub 4.0s 0-60, MANY MANY MANY of them have supercar 0-30 and 0-40 times.

You can hop in a used 5 year old Mercedes B-class and plant your foot to the gas, and the way that glorified minivan will punch you into the back of your seat is unreal.

My (non-performance) Model X 100D is absolutely frightening when I plant my foot to the floor from a stop, even though it doesn't get to 60 until 4.4s have passed.

If you want to "feel acceleration" in most normal driving situations and not on the drag strip... then you would be perfectly happy with the max pack and probably not be able to tell the difference between large and max.

Out of curiosity I’d like to know what the Rivian could do in the 1/8 and 1/4 mile. Curious if the power drops off at higher speeds. Never owned an EV. I take it I’ll be surprised. I think my fastest car did the 1/4 in 15 seconds. 1969 Dodge Charger. ??

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