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TRap015

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Shouldn’t they know the limitation pretty early? They locked the contract with suppliers during Covid and know those cameras are pretty shitty. Not only driver+, the gear guard is useless if you can’t see a person, a license plate clearly.
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beyondgravity

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Yeah and? Hardware simply isn't capable of those things safely.
I highly doubt that hardware is not capable. If Tesla can do with their limited hardware, Rivian can do it. Of course, they have decided to move on to “better” hardware; mind you it is not the “only” hardware. It makes sense for them to invest in future hardware; even if the current hardware is capable.

if the company is rolling in cash, yes they could have met their commitments or close to it. Since the EV market is in doldrums and we want Rivian to be successful, I am fine with marginal improvements in G1. I would atleast want Rivian to try wherever they can give us improvements in critical areas like quality of ride, drive systems, etc. We did pay 20% or 30% off, didn’t we?
 

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The system is literally worse than Tesla Hardware 1.0, circa 2015. The functionality is similar, but the Tesla system doesn't have the arbitrary highway gating.
IMO, AP1 is still better than HW3 on the highway. FSD is a little bit better, but still very timid. I am new to D+, but so far I am not put off by its behavior in stop and go traffic like I am with HW3. I've yet to road trip the truck, but I really only used AP on major highways anyway. I guess I'll see just how much D+ freaks out and turns itself off on the interstate.

Early Lightning BlueCruise (July/Aug 2022) turned itself off a lot even on major highways and it ping ponged in its lane a lot. I believe that has been improved, but right now I don't think D+ is all that bad compared to its peers. Its certainly better than Tesla AP in that you're able to manually change lanes without manually disabling and reenabling the system. Arguably this is better than auto lane change with EAP/FSD. My first road trip is a week from now so maybe my next post here will be in a different tune.

As for highway mapping, I would think this would continue to improve lock step with G2 as both systems would leverage this mapping.
 

TRap015

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I highly doubt that hardware is not capable. If Tesla can do with their limited hardware, Rivian can do it. Of course, they have decided to move on to “better” hardware; mind you it is not the “only” hardware. It makes sense for them to invest in future hardware; even if the current hardware is capable.

if the company is rolling in cash, yes they could have met their commitments or close to it. Since the EV market is in doldrums and we want Rivian to be successful, I am fine with marginal improvements in G1. I would atleast want Rivian to try wherever they can give us improvements in critical areas like quality of ride, drive systems, etc. We did pay 20% or 30% off, didn’t we?
You did, I didn’t. Between March 2022-March 2024. Those all paid full price without any incentive. Sure I’m fine if I got 20-30% off, but a lot of people didn’t.
 

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Shouldn’t they know the limitation pretty early? They locked the contract with suppliers during Covid and know those cameras are pretty shitty. Not only driver+, the gear guard is useless if you can’t see a person, a license plate clearly.
They may have locked in supply contracts during COVID, but the decision on the ADAS platform to use was made well before that. The vehicle's system architecture, OEM engineering assistance, camera physical placement, software engineering and development, etc. had been determined well before COVID. It's likely that the OEM overpromised capabilities and/or Rivian made sensor location, camera angle view perspective, etc. errors in the implementation which caused them to "rollback" features as development efforts continued.
 

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I can't think of a technical reason they can't implement lane change on gen1. The car already knows if there is a lane there, and whether it's safe to change lanes.
I highly doubt that hardware is not capable. If Tesla can do with their limited hardware, Rivian can do it. Of course, they have decided to move on to “better” hardware; mind you it is not the “only” hardware. It makes sense for them to invest in future hardware; even if the current hardware is capable.
We simply don't know the reasons that they can't implement auto lane change. It is easy to say "it's only software, if Tesla can do it, why can't Rivian?". It's very possible that something as "simple" sensor placement/accuracy/resolution is the problem, not software. What if the rear looking cameras and radar do not "look back" far enough with sufficient resolution to provide a safety margin for a car that is going 20 mph faster than you in the left lane? Would you want Rivian to do an automatic lane change if they can't accurately detect fast approaching traffic?
 

beyondgravity

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We simply don't know the reasons that they can't implement auto lane change. It is easy to say "it's only software, if Tesla can do it, why can't Rivian?". It's very possible that something as "simple" sensor placement/accuracy/resolution is the problem, not software. What if the rear looking cameras and radar do not "look back" far enough with sufficient resolution to provide a safety margin for a car that is going 20 mph faster than you in the left lane? Would you want Rivian to do an automatic lane change if they can't accurately detect fast approaching traffic?
Ok. Let’s leave out Tesla. If Viking probes can traverse and land in mars w/1960s technology, we can do anything with 2021 technology in G1. I am not saying it is going to be easy; but do not cop out saying that G1 cannot do it.

it is like blind leading the blind. I think it is possible and you do not think so; neither have internal knowledge; but I think, it is a question of resources for Rivian and also how they can break away from pre-March pricing folks; as obviously they lost money and there is no need to continuously invest in loss making customer base.

When we become G2, R2 and beyond customers, they can recoup their losses from us.
 

Zoidz

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Ok. Let’s leave out Tesla. If Viking probes can traverse and land in mars w/1960s technology, we can do anything with 2021 technology in G1. I am not saying it is going to be easy; but do not cop out saying that G1 cannot do it.

it is like blind leading the blind. I think it is possible and you do not think so; neither have internal knowledge; but I think, it is a question of resources for Rivian and also how they can break away from pre-March pricing folks; as obviously they lost money and there is no need to continuously invest in loss making customer base.

When we become G2, R2 and beyond customers, they can recoup their losses from us.
As someone who has worked in engineering with a wide variety sensor devices, including vision systems for manufacturing lines, I can tell you that a sensor with the wrong specification, placement, insufficient resolution, etc. can't be fixed by any software, even if it would be processed by a quantum computer. Rivian can't "do anything [they want] with 2021 technology in G1."
 

EVTrukHog

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D+ is not the only feature included in early ads that never fully materialized….still a great truck as-is.
 

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Driver+ on Gen 1 vehicles is tremendously limited. While it does 'work well' in certain conditions, there are loads more scenarios where it doesn't. Even the forced highway limitation of the system is flawed as there are small sections of well-established highways that it forcibly cuts out on requiring a manual re-engage.

The system is literally worse than Tesla Hardware 1.0, circa 2015. The functionality is similar, but the Tesla system doesn't have the arbitrary highway gating.


Regarding advertisements - in what world should we, as Rivian customers, not expect them to deliver on promises made when we purchased vehicles? Regardless of personal usefulness, we as a group should be advocating for delivery of a high-quality vehicle INCLUDING all future enhancements as marketed. Just because it may not have factored into your purchasing decision, it did for hundreds or thousands of fellow owners, myself included. At minimum, having additional D+ functionality will almost certainly enhance the value of the vehicle putting money in your pocket. To blow it off as meaningless is just foolish.
Rivian R1T R1S Driver+ Gen 1 Advertised Features 1000011661


Highway 3 near us had construction finish almost a year ago, during construction D+ worked fine but towards the end it was marked construction zone and forces cancellation on a perfectly good road now.

On the other end, Highway 16 has new construction with lane shifts and barriers, it follows that no problem. I'm sure when they finish in a year, it'll be marked construction and not work there after it's back to normal...

50k miles of ownership with the constant "don't worry, hands free and lane change are coming s00n" finally came to fruition... in a different vehicle. Yes, the $20k discount was nice, but I'm still bitter. Compensation for false advertisement? Perhaps. Apology? Required. A good middle ground would be Connect+ for life.
 
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beatle

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We simply don't know the reasons that they can't implement auto lane change. It is easy to say "it's only software, if Tesla can do it, why can't Rivian?". It's very possible that something as "simple" sensor placement/accuracy/resolution is the problem, not software. What if the rear looking cameras and radar do not "look back" far enough with sufficient resolution to provide a safety margin for a car that is going 20 mph faster than you in the left lane? Would you want Rivian to do an automatic lane change if they can't accurately detect fast approaching traffic?
Back in the day, Tesla (Mobileye) didn't need a rear camera for Autopilot lane changes. "AP1" hardware is now over 10 years old. Lane changes were initiated by the driver, so you were on the hook to ensure you yielded the right of way, but the car performed the lane changes on its own. Newer Tesla cars can decide to and then perform lane changes, but I turned that off pretty quickly as its decision making was worse than a student driver at most times. The newer cars are less hesitant at actually making a lane change than the older ones though.

Snippet from this page

AP1 vehicles were produced from 2014 to 2016.
AP1 Hardware Suite:
  • Front camera (single monochrome)
    • Front radar with range of 525 feet / 160 meters (Bosch Mid-range radar sensor)
    • 12 ultrasonic sensors with 16 ft range / 5 meters
    • Rear camera for driver only (not used in Autopilot)
    • Mobileye EyeQ3 computing platform
The logic to make a lane change isn't all that complicated once the car knows how to "see" ahead and steer itself in its own lane. A lane change is just providing a small amount of steering to the direction of the desired lane, and then resuming the code to center itself once it observes the vehicle is centered in a new lane. There's probably a bit of extra instruction to limit steering inputs at higher speeds, and I know someone has to write that code to make it happen, but it doesn't require some kind of futuristic hardware.
 

allisgoodman

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Back in the day, Tesla (Mobileye) didn't need a rear camera for Autopilot lane changes. "AP1" hardware is now over 10 years old. Lane changes were initiated by the driver, so you were on the hook to ensure you yielded the right of way, but the car performed the lane changes on its own. Newer Tesla cars can decide to and then perform lane changes, but I turned that off pretty quickly as its decision making was worse than a student driver at most times. The newer cars are less hesitant at actually making a lane change than the older ones though.

Snippet from this page

AP1 vehicles were produced from 2014 to 2016.
AP1 Hardware Suite:
  • Front camera (single monochrome)
    • Front radar with range of 525 feet / 160 meters (Bosch Mid-range radar sensor)
    • 12 ultrasonic sensors with 16 ft range / 5 meters
    • Rear camera for driver only (not used in Autopilot)
    • Mobileye EyeQ3 computing platform
The logic to make a lane change isn't all that complicated once the car knows how to "see" ahead and steer itself in its own lane. A lane change is just providing a small amount of steering to the direction of the desired lane, and then resuming the code to center itself once it observes the vehicle is centered in a new lane. There's probably a bit of extra instruction to limit steering inputs at higher speeds, and I know someone has to write that code to make it happen, but it doesn't require some kind of futuristic hardware.
Rivian doesn't want to take risk. That's it.
 

Riviot

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Rivian doesn't want to take risk. That's it.
It was a pretty big risk advertising lane change and hands-free Driver+ for years on tens of thousands of vehicles (100k+ now, right?), then reneging when their new, more profitable platform came out. So, agree to disagree on their risk assessments.
 

Zoidz

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Back in the day, Tesla (Mobileye) didn't need a rear camera for Autopilot lane changes. "AP1" hardware is now over 10 years old. Lane changes were initiated by the driver, so you were on the hook to ensure you yielded the right of way, but the car performed the lane changes on its own. Newer Tesla cars can decide to and then perform lane changes, but I turned that off pretty quickly as its decision making was worse than a student driver at most times. The newer cars are less hesitant at actually making a lane change than the older ones though.

Snippet from this page

AP1 vehicles were produced from 2014 to 2016.
AP1 Hardware Suite:
  • Front camera (single monochrome)
    • Front radar with range of 525 feet / 160 meters (Bosch Mid-range radar sensor)
    • 12 ultrasonic sensors with 16 ft range / 5 meters
    • Rear camera for driver only (not used in Autopilot)
    • Mobileye EyeQ3 computing platform
The logic to make a lane change isn't all that complicated once the car knows how to "see" ahead and steer itself in its own lane. A lane change is just providing a small amount of steering to the direction of the desired lane, and then resuming the code to center itself once it observes the vehicle is centered in a new lane. There's probably a bit of extra instruction to limit steering inputs at higher speeds, and I know someone has to write that code to make it happen, but it doesn't require some kind of futuristic hardware.
I'm giving Rivian the benefit of the doubt that they encountered safety and/or technical limitations when trying to implement it.
 

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As the early adopter of the R1S Gen1, I was also excited by the promise of future-proof hardware and the enhanced Driver+ features via software updates when taking delivery. However, up to this point, the current state of Driver+ is a major disappointment. While we didn’t expect Tesla-level Full Self-Driving capabilities, it’s frustrating that the basic lane-keeping functionality is limited to selected highways. Many vehicles today offer lane-keeping assist on any clearly marked road as a standard feature. It has significantly reduced my interest on another Rivian product based on promises.
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