Dual vs Quad motor pros and cons?

[Dark-Fx]

I do understand I was more than just setting myself up for that, but for my use case I do think I make a valid case. Dual BEV household that can favor the full BEV and minimize gas miles to road trips only on the 4XE is a pretty compelling use case that I will defend.

Everything else I said on this thread about "want/needing" it to be amazing and still think it will is true though, which is probably what people are reading. I've reported all of my feelings accurately yet you don't see me cancelling my R1 reservation and jumping into a Jeep dealership either.

I test drove a 4XE and it's all the things that suck about a Jeep, but with an underpowered electric option that make it a crappy EV with a tiny range. It's extremely slow acceleration on EV only mode, and if you push too hard, it still kicks on the ICE. There's all the typical jeep wind noise to contend with on the freeway. It still rides rough like a jeep does. The interior felt very low quality and the seats weren't comfortable. I have no idea why Jeeps are so popular. Maybe they do well off-road, but it hardly matters to me if it's my daily driver. The tagline of "It's a jeep thing, you wouldn't understand" is so cultish, it's an admission that it's an inferior vehicle to use for anything but offroading.

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[Bee]

I test drove a 4XE and it's all the things that suck about a Jeep, but with an underpowered electric option that make it a crappy EV with a tiny range. It's extremely slow acceleration on EV only mode, and if you push too hard, it still kicks on the ICE. There's all the typical jeep wind noise to contend with on the freeway. It still rides rough like a jeep does. The interior felt very low quality and the seats weren't comfortable. I have no idea why Jeeps are so popular. Maybe they do well off-road, but it hardly matters to me if it's my daily driver.

For me a Jeep is a daily with compromises that you deal with because it also happens to be the most capable small off-roader on the planet.

Honestly, I'm the kind of guy that lusts over a basic Jeep with roll up windows even. I'm either a strip it down even the carpets kind of guy or walking out with a Rubicon. Basically it's about what it's going to mean for me on the days I'm having fun, even if they're few and far between in the family years. Space for a family of 4 is easily had in a 4-door Wrangler.

There are other factors too, like you can take a look at the 2 cars I'm driving right now and the things that I'm saying and conclude I'm probably not entirely happy with my stable right now even if I think both cars are great. I can get a 4XE a lot sooner than I can an R1S and be driving all electric locally.

You're right about soccer moms or suburban people who own them for snow. They're objectively worse tools for that job. Morons driving around in all season tires not realizing my Chevy Bolt with winter tires is better than their $70,000 waste of money. Of course they're also going 10mph because they tried to go 30 once when they first bought the thing and tried to stop and now they live with their ignorance and mistake.

 

[MountainBikeDude]

I don't want to have to be looking at the dash when I'm supposed to be paying attention to what's happening outside the vehicle. When you're trying to select a line, it's a terrible time to be looking at the dash. Not sure what your experience is with offroading a car/truck, but imagine looking at your bike computer while you're trying to blast down a trail.

For me if it was implemented, I'd only be looking at it if I wasn't making any forward progress, If I'm moving already, that graphic is irrelevant.

 

[SoCal Rob]

Are you 100% right now, for real? I'm not. I'm confident, but not 100%. I would have thought of all the things to make sure they nail, this would be it and it's slightly confidence shaking that is hasn't.

I've said twice already that I kind of want a 4xE Rubicon on this thread and no one has fought me on it on the grounds I've presented, that's even more confidence shaking. I'm in fanboy ground zero asking for it and everyone is kind of like, "yeah you're not exactly saying crazy things."

Yes, what I wrote was that I am 100% confident that the present hardware is going to make for outstanding off-road capabilities. As in currently does or will in the future. I can’t say if it does or doesn’t with 100% confidence today because I haven’t driven one off-road.

Regarding vehicle choice, if you prioritize off-road capability over nearly everything else (passenger and cargo space, on-road comfort, on-road handling, etc.) then by all means go for a Wrangler 4xe. There are tons of dealers, the price should be lower, and you won’t have any range anxiety issues.

I’m used to vehicle which is closer in spirit to the R1S and I’m unwilling to be driving 2+ hours to off road destinations in something with the characteristics of a Wrangler at 70+ mph. I also don’t want to sacrifice passenger space or cargo capacity. I doubt I could get ventilated seats, either. Though I would get CarPlay.

Seriously, only you know everything that factors into your needs or wants.

 

[SoCal Rob]

I know we've been down this road before (pardon the pun) but they don't need audible noises in the cab, all they have to do is implement the real-time power guage in the corner of the drive mode video. They had it originally in the UI demo of the show vehicles. I'm confident it will make it's way into the vehicles s---0---0---n

I don't want to have to be looking at the dash when I'm supposed to be paying attention to what's happening outside the vehicle. When you're trying to select a line, it's a terrible time to be looking at the dash. Not sure what your experience is with offroading a car/truck, but imagine looking at your bike computer while you're trying to blast down a trail.

Why not both and let the driver choose? For all the criticisms about an all touchscreen center stack, being able to add options and controls is a compelling strength to me.

Our ancient LR3 has an off-road screen where it shows steering wheel angle, status of the diff locks, and the relative height of each wheel with a blinking indicator for any wheel(s) in full extension or compression. I don’t typically look at it while moving. However, in a tricky situation that isn’t dangerous enough to warrant getting out and looking, I do occasionally check it to see what’s going on. The diff lock status is interesting in Rock Crawl, too, since it lets me know how difficult the vehicle thinks the terrain is and if I need to reduce steering angle to allow it to help things along.

 

[doit82]

If I can get V2H with the dual motor I will trade my quad in for that.

 

[Bee]

Yes, what I wrote was that I am 100% confident that the present hardware is going to make for outstanding off-road capabilities. As in currently does or will in the future. I can’t say if it does or doesn’t with 100% confidence today because I haven’t driven one off-road.

Regarding vehicle choice, if you prioritize off-road capability over nearly everything else (passenger and cargo space, on-road comfort, on-road handling, etc.) then by all means go for a Wrangler 4xe. There are tons of dealers, the price should be lower, and you won’t have any range anxiety issues.

I’m used to vehicle which is closer in spirit to the R1S and I’m unwilling to be driving 2+ hours to off road destinations in something with the characteristics of a Wrangler at 70+ mph. I also don’t want to sacrifice passenger space or cargo capacity. I doubt I could get ventilated seats, either. Though I would get CarPlay.

Seriously, only you know everything that factors into your needs or wants.

My wife will hop into the R1S and not think twice about it. She will look at the Rubicon as my toy and think its intimidating and avoid it. It's a complex thing.

Mainly I'm just being a child about it not being perfect out of the box (and a 2024 delivery), I think that's clear. As I said, I have not and am not actually planning on canceling any R1x reservations.

 

[SoCal Rob]

My wife will hop into the R1S and not think twice about it. She will look at the Rubicon as my toy and think its intimidating and avoid it. It's a complex thing.

Mainly I'm just being a child about it not being perfect out of the box (and a 2024 delivery), I think that's clear. As I said, I have not and am not actually planning on canceling any R1x reservations.

I know less about your marriage than I know about your vehicle needs. On the other hand, I’ve been in a remarkably drama-free relationship for over 27 years so, if you haven’t already, I think you should probably pay more attention to your wife’s opinions than a bunch of enthusiasts on the Internet. If you explain what you’re considering and why she may give you feedback which helps you reach a decisive best choice.

 

[Bee]

I know less about your marriage than I know about your vehicle needs. On the other hand, I’ve been in a remarkably drama-free relationship for over 27 years so, if you haven’t already, I think you should probably pay more attention to your wife’s opinions than a bunch of enthusiasts on the Internet. If you explain what you’re considering and why she may give you feedback which helps you reach a decisive best choice.

I mean, of course. My point is she's intimidated by differential switches and additional levers for gears she doesn't understand. She looks and is interested in an R1S and vocally would see, especially a Gladiator, as a lot of money spent for only me. Which, is actually fair. Especially when she's letting me buy an R1S and I don't see it as a compromise.

She's also stayed with me through some pretty irrational vehicle choices so far over 15 years of marriage, so, I owe her a lot in this department.

 

[BillArnett]

I think a locked diff mode where all 4 wheels spin at the same speed no matter what could put some real stress on the driveline components and the engineers are confident they have a more elegant solution than a brute force approach like that.

Did you watch the video from @OutofSpecKyle where the R1T and R1S were being compared on the same trail? The first thing he did with both was test a particularly tough uphill stretch at a very low speed and the R1T got stuck with, if I recall correctly, a couple wheels spinning and a couple remaining stationary.

I was very disappointed to see that.

Later, when preparing to do the main run, he put the vehicle in Rock Crawl mode. Wait, what now? I had to go back to make sure I heard that right. Maybe Rivian’s guidance is different (or non-existent) but I would have had our Land Rover in Rock Crawl as soon as I had an issue with traction on a mix of dirt and rock at a crawling speed. I wish he’d duplicate the test in his R1T but in Rock Crawl as soon as he encounters an issue with traction.

I really think a lot of this comes back to using the right settings for the conditions and obstacles like I was talking about here. Rivian really needs a video showing what changes in each drive mode and why it’s important to select the right one. I’m looking forward to getting our R1S so I can do some testing of my own. I am pretty sure that our LR3 will have already trained me well for Rivian’s way of doing things.

edit: typos

See 0:25 and 9:54 in Kyle's video. He has the truck in All-Terrain mode but nevertheless I can't imagine a situation where that's the correct behavior in any mode. He didn't try the same spot in Rock Crawl mode. I'm not sure it would have made any difference. Of course, it's easy enough on a simple obstacle like that to get over it with a tiny bit of momentum or just by taking a slightly different line. But it in a different situation that might not be possible. The point is that it should always apply sufficient torque to the wheel(s) with traction never mind if one of the others is slipping. And it shouldn't let the wheel with no traction spin so much; at all times all four wheels should be spinning at the same rate (modulo the steering angle). Same if going downhill with regen braking: don't stop the wheels with no traction, keep them rotating at the same rate as the others.

Obviously, I don't know who Rivian's software works. But it's possible that a "software locker" might be difficult to implement. I don't know if they have sensors that measure the wheel/motor rotation rate directly or if it can be inferred from something else that they know. Clearly they know the torque on each motor but I'm not sure if that's sufficient. It would be kind of lame if they had to use the ABS sensors.

I agree that it would be very helpful if Rivian would explain in more detail what each drive mode does. How hard can that be?

But I also agree with Rob's later comment that snow/ice mode should take priority at this time. But come spring they should get this fixed.

 

[Olsonsolar]

Man did this thread get off track.

 

[Canthoney]

I read elsewhere that the dual motor would have 800 V technology, I’m not sure how true that is though

 

[emoore]

I read elsewhere that the dual motor would have 800 V technology, I’m not sure how true that is though

Probably near certain they will be 800v. I think that’s why they are delaying the max pack with quad motors. max pack with 400v doesn’t make much sense.

 

[DaveA]

Does anyone know what the max tow capability will be for the dual motor?

 

[Dark-Fx]

Does anyone know what the max tow capability will be for the dual motor?

Most likely won't be different, but I don't know that for sure, this is just speculation.

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