Electrify America - Redesigned labels coming to charging stations

[Tahoe Man]

Seems like the correct thread to drop this video from Out of Spec on the next gen Electrify America chargers being installed....

I've seen a few of his videos but I don't really take YouTube influencers very serious...They are a just another marketing gimmick after all with pay or incentives for their efforts.

That being said, why would new hardware be the holy grail as he's alluding too? The basic problem is there is no real money to be made in selling electricity. Tesla brands it and locks it into selling points with their vehicles with great results. I hope Rivian goes duplicates that too.

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[mindstormsguy]

GM, Ford, Honda, etc all should invest what they deem is reasonable

Who is to say they haven’t? Maybe they thought $0 is reasonable? Or maybe it was: invest a little in EA, but not invest enough to build a dedicated network.

 

[SeaGeo]

I've seen a few of his videos but I don't really take YouTube influencers very serious...They are a just another marketing gimmick after all with pay or incentives for their efforts.

That being said, why would new hardware be the holy grail as he's alluding too? The basic problem is there is no real money to be made in selling electricity. Tesla brands it and locks it into selling points with their vehicles with great results. I hope Rivian goes duplicates that too.

Tesla has opened their network to other vehicles in Europe and is (apparently) opening it up in the U.S. with their V4 chargers.

The issue with EA isn't that the company isn't tied to a single vehicle manufacturers. At this point in time, if a station's hardware is working you'll be able to charge successfully. The issue (generally) is that a lot of their existing hardware is relatively old from a design standpoint, wasn't really intended for this use case, and EA seems to have done a poor job maintaining some of the old hardware. It's become fairly obvious what generations of hardware and manufacturers of hardware are reliable. Kyle's (hope) is that the two vendors EA is going with will continue to be reliable (they are elsewhere), and that because this hardware is basically no longer beta hardware that some lessons have been learned by the manufacturer.

I don't at all follow your rationale that each manufacturer should make their own network. That's exceedingly inefficient from a resources standpoint. A more rationale approach would be for the manufacturers to have a financial agreement with a network (like EA) that has performance criteria in EA's contract.

I totally agree, making money selling electricity is hard. EA thinks they can do it. Tesla thinks they can do it (remember, they have opened it up elsewhere, and plan to here). EVGO does, and Rivian thinks they will be able to eventually as well. The charging companies need to be smart to manage demand fees (which can be seen in EA's new chargers actually), and they need chargers to have high utilization to overcome demand fee costs.

 

[Tahoe Man]

Who is to say they haven’t? Maybe they thought $0 is reasonable? Or maybe it was: invest a little in EA, but not invest enough to build a dedicated network.

The automakers are in hands off mode and why wouldn't they be at this point with government dollars flowing into the system.
Ford and GM are doing a little, but it doesn't really scratch the surface.

 

[atebit]

I've stated in another thread that I'm a big proponent of a closed DC charging network where each manufacturer has their own dedicated network of DC fast chargers and any other amenities etc

Can you please explain how that would be scalable? That would be like GM saying that you can only use Philips 66, Toyota saying you can only use Shell, Ford saying you can only use Mobil, etc. and taking active steps at the cars & pumps to make it so.

EVSEs are just glorified extension cords, it’s not magic. The signaling “protocol” is tantamount to a resistor ladder circuit. The smarts are in the charger in the car. While there are clearly reliability issues with commercial EVSEs that overheat, have back-end billing issues that prevent session initiation, etc. I think it’s more of the EV manufacturers designing their chargers to play nicer with the real world.

 

[Tahoe Man]

Can you please explain how that would be scalable? That would be like GM saying that you can only use Philips 66, Toyota saying you can only use Shell, Ford saying you can only use Mobil, etc. and taking active steps at the cars & pumps to make it so.

EVSEs are just glorified extension cords, it’s not magic. The signaling “protocol” is tantamount to a resistor ladder circuit. The smarts are in the charger in the car. While there are clearly reliability issues with commercial EVSEs that overheat, have back-end billing issues that prevent session initiation, etc. I think it’s more of the EV manufacturers designing their chargers to play nicer with the real world.

It's not scalable the way it is now. You can't scale something even when the pilot program utterly fails. It needs a complete overhaul and an actual business model.

There's nothing wrong with having a closed system. You are correct that would be like Ford saying you can only use their chargers.... For the end user Ford is on the hook now, not some third party that has zero skin in the game. However the benefit for Ford is they can offset that cost and more by rolling it into their vehicle price or creating a hybrid system where the user agrees to subscription charging services. Makers could lessen the cost by joining a consortium agreement too. The biggest advantage for Ford would be customers locked into their network but experiencing reliable, stress free charging, Ford can charge a premium for that.

I think Rivian sees this and is tiptoeing into this direction.

 

[Tahoe Man]

Tesla has opened their network to other vehicles in Europe and is (apparently) opening it up in the U.S. with their V4 chargers.

The issue with EA isn't that the company isn't tied to a single vehicle manufacturers. At this point in time, if a station's hardware is working you'll be able to charge successfully. The issue (generally) is that a lot of their existing hardware is relatively old from a design standpoint, wasn't really intended for this use case, and EA seems to have done a poor job maintaining some of the old hardware. It's become fairly obvious what generations of hardware and manufacturers of hardware are reliable. Kyle's (hope) is that the two vendors EA is going with will continue to be reliable (they are elsewhere), and that because this hardware is basically no longer beta hardware that some lessons have been learned by the manufacturer.

I don't at all follow your rationale that each manufacturer should make their own network. That's exceedingly inefficient from a resources standpoint. A more rationale approach would be for the manufacturers to have a financial agreement with a network (like EA) that has performance criteria in EA's contract.

I totally agree, making money selling electricity is hard. EA thinks they can do it. Tesla thinks they can do it (remember, they have opened it up elsewhere, and plan to here). EVGO does, and Rivian thinks they will be able to eventually as well. The charging companies need to be smart to manage demand fees (which can be seen in EA's new chargers actually), and they need chargers to have high utilization to overcome demand fee costs.

Rivian can market their charging network if they build it out and subsidize the cost into their vehicle pricing. It's a huge confidence booster for end users when know they can make full use of their electric vehicle.

The issue with EA is they are forced to do this. Stating it's a hardware, software, subcontractor problem adds no merit. As I stated, the current system is so bad the government is stepping in even more.

 

[MoreTrout]

The only issue I have had with EA so far is their refusal to bill me. The first time I used one was on my 200 mile trip to camp. It's about 75 miles from the camp. Charges by the min, and came out to about .13c/kWh. I have stopped at that same charger I think 4 or 5 times now. Having a Taco Bell across the street makes it nice. It hasn't generated a bill for any of the charges since the first one. One was on Labor day and so it was advertised as complimentary from the start. But every other one has the same billing instructions. When I plug in it initiates the charge without needing to open the app and start it. First time I figured it somehow established a history based on the first charge, but the bill never came. My EA app still lists that first stop as my only public charging session. I don't even need to stop to make the trip, but until they start billing me I'm sure not going to pass up the chance at more free electrons and a couple of cheap burritos.
And same thing happened twice at a charger in MD during a trip last week. My wife thinks I'm eventually going to get a bill in the mail like the way the toll roads bill your license plate.

 

[atebit]

It's not scalable the way it is now. You can't scale something even when the pilot program utterly fails. It needs a complete overhaul and an actual business model.

There's nothing wrong with having a closed system. You are correct that would be like Ford saying you can only use their chargers.... For the end user Ford is on the hook now, not some third party that has zero skin in the game. However the benefit for Ford is they can offset that cost and more by rolling it into their vehicle price or creating a hybrid system where the user agrees to subscription charging services. Makers could lessen the cost by joining a consortium agreement too. The biggest advantage for Ford would be customers locked into their network but experiencing reliable, stress free charging, Ford can charge a premium for that.

I think Rivian sees this and is tiptoeing into this direction.

To me it’s more about location. Today, the oil companies already have that. Nirvana would be today they’re selling hydrocarbons, tomorrow their selling electrons, “re-energized electrolyte”, whatever. The “brand” should have little to do with it, unless say Station Y has better coffee or doesn’t let their hot dogs languish as long on the roller grill as Station X.

It really doesn’t need to be any more difficult than plugging in your Cannon camera’s Li-ion AA battery charger at home, a hotel in Cleveland or a hotel in Singapore.

 

[Acoustic71]

Somehow I was getting significantly less plugged to a 350KW than 150KW on Friday.

I think they have a little blue pill for that....

 

[Boomkanani]

Imagine driving an ICE Toyota and stopping at a Ford gas station and being refused service.
I think companies and investors were waiting to see what green energy funding the government was going to push out before taking any major actions. I've had a good experience with EA overall. Considering the company's history, they will improve drastically in the coming years. Imagine were EV adoption would be without EA. Other than Tesla...no other company is near their infrastructure. Thank Volkswagen for the emissions scandal.

 

[norivian]

The only issue I have had with EA so far is their refusal to bill me. The first time I used one was on my 200 mile trip to camp. It's about 75 miles from the camp. Charges by the min, and came out to about .13c/kWh. I have stopped at that same charger I think 4 or 5 times now. Having a Taco Bell across the street makes it nice. It hasn't generated a bill for any of the charges since the first one. One was on Labor day and so it was advertised as complimentary from the start. But every other one has the same billing instructions. When I plug in it initiates the charge without needing to open the app and start it. First time I figured it somehow established a history based on the first charge, but the bill never came. My EA app still lists that first stop as my only public charging session. I don't even need to stop to make the trip, but until they start billing me I'm sure not going to pass up the chance at more free electrons and a couple of cheap burritos.
And same thing happened twice at a charger in MD during a trip last week. My wife thinks I'm eventually going to get a bill in the mail like the way the toll roads bill your license plate.

Maybe because of the on-going software upgrades? I believe started on the 7th.

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