Has Rivian lost the battle AND the war?

[moosehead]

Everyone knows it, but Im gonna say it: Mercedes are for douches.

Whattaya call it when OP buys the Mercedes EQS SUV to tow his Porsche?

I kid, I kid.

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[Mister Person]

The R1S is a beautiful vehicle. There is not another 3-row EV on the market or announced that can hold a candle to it, in my opinion. Designers seem to think that their EVs need to look "electric" and edgy with all kinds of dumb angles. I think Land Rover and 4Runner buyers will flock to the R1S. Don't underestimate people's willing to pay for beauty.

Rivian also has lower cost vehicles in the works. Just like Tesla learned the ropes with the S and X, then came the 3 and Y.

 

[Gator42]

As of now there is only ONE company that makes a truck that looks like my forum avatar

Pixar makes a truck?

 

[SeaGeo]

I personally cross-shopped the R1S against each of the vehicles mentioned by the OP... In addition to others such as the Lightning. The OP may be more correct than many of you think.

This forum is full of people who think Rivian is the supreme vehicle, but there are many people who disagree... They just aren't in this forum and therefore don't respond to these polls.

In fact, many people with R1S reservations, such as myself, have other EV reservations too. The reservation to order conversion rate for Rivian is likely not as high as many here think, and it's likely to drop after Rivian burns through the very early reservations.

I still have a Lightning reservation, and very well may end up with that truck in the long run.

Another competitor I haven't seen mentioned here much yet is the Porche Macan EV. It looks like a great option for people wanting a vehicle more luxurious than the typical American SUV. It also has 800 volt charging and a good range. It will likely be priced very similar to the R1S. It won't work for people who want to take the vehicle off road though, and it also won't work for people who need a 3rd row.

Nitpick: unless you just placed your order you didn't cross shop it against the EQS SUV...

But to your point, I cross shopped it as well. I have a Lightning reservation. OP suggested Rivian has no place in the market with the EQS and Ioniq 5 out there. Which is the problem with the question. There's plenty of room in the market for several vehicles, and the R1 vehicles are an incredibly good offering. So is the Ioniq 5 for some things. And the EQS. And the Lightning. That doesn't mean the R1 suddenly doesn't have a market though.

The Lightning as spec'd doesn't fit what I want for range or charging speeds. Plus it just doesn't fit my lifestyle as well as the R1.

The Macan would be awesome, but if it comes out with pricing similar to the R1S when similarly packaged I will be absolutely floored. The Taycan ends up being like 120k+ when you sneeze at the configurator.

To your argument that the forum is full if people thinking it's Supreme, I'd disagree. There have been a lot discussions about the shortcomings if the vehicles and positives of others. Several people bailed for the e-gmp cars. Several have said they are actively looking at the EV9 and the Volvo's upcoming SUV. Then reason the poll is so skewed is the question wasn't "will Rivian lose some sales to competition" I was basically "does the R1S no longer have a place in the market." And it clearly does.

 

[ERguy]

Nitpick: unless you just placed your order you didn't cross shop it against the EQS SUV...

But to your point, I cross shopped it as well. I have a Lightning reservation. OP suggested Rivian has no place in the market with the EQS and Ioniq 5 out there. Which is the problem with the question. There's plenty of room in the market for several vehicles, and the R1 vehicles are an incredibly good offering. So is the Ioniq 5 for some things. And the EQS. And the Lightning. That doesn't mean the R1 suddenly doesn't have a market though.

The Lightning as spec'd doesn't fit what I want for range or charging speeds. Plus it just doesn't fit my lifestyle as well as the R1.

The Macan would be awesome, but if it comes out with pricing similar to the R1S when similarly packaged I will be absolutely floored. The Taycan ends up being like 120k+ when you sneeze at the configurator.

To your argument that the forum is full if people thinking it's Supreme, I'd disagree. There have been a lot discussions about the shortcomings if the vehicles and positives of others. Several people bailed for the e-gmp cars. Several have said they are actively looking at the EV9 and the Volvo's upcoming SUV. Then reason the poll is so skewed is the question wasn't "will Rivian lose some sales to competition" I was basically "does the R1S no longer have a place in the market." And it clearly does.

Good point. Rivian still has a niche in the market. Whether or not it is a big enough niche to ensure long term success is anyone's guess. So far Rivian is doing about as well or better than one could reasonably expect from a new startup automaker. I'm not sure this will translate to long term viability though. It might.

Rivian better keep its eyes on the EV9 though. It just might take a big chunk out of the market of people shopping for a 3 row EV Kia can keep the price down as they typically do.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Macan EV pricing based on the media speculation. If I could get a decently equipped Macan EV for under 90k, I would think long and hard about buying it over my R1S Adventure trim reservation.

 

[SeaGeo]

Good point. Rivian still has a niche in the market. Whether or not it is a big enough niche to ensure long term success is anyone's guess. So far Rivian is doing about as well or better than one could reasonably expect from a new startup automaker. I'm not sure this will translate to long term viability though. It might.

Rivian better keep its eyes on the EV9 though. It just might take a big chunk out of the market of people doing for 3 row EVs if they keep the price down as they typically do.

Totally agree. Which I think is why they are pushing so early for a second plant to get more market.

I think the bigger issue is going to continue to be getting enough supplies to keep the plant running full and average down their costs.

 

[lostpacket]

All I'm saying is that if I saw thousands of these guys across the battlefield I would immediately surrender.

 

[Dersies]

My hobby, passion, obsession in life is cars. I'm fortunate enough to own some very head turning attention getting cars. However, I hate it. I love these cars for what they are...not what they represent. I desperately want to drive an R1T for the experience of it. I absolutely dread the attention it may draw....It's a big turn off for me in this case. I would rather remain wallflower and enjoy the car not the attention.

Depending on where you live might make the difference. I get people looking every now and then while driving but hardly anyone has said anything to me and no one has stopped me yet to ask about.

 

[t00nces]

I think a lot of people have pointed out the sweet spot for the RS1 and it's why I'm on the waitlist - Land Rover | Range Rover Sport. I'm in that group of buyers that loves the look, the peformance and just enough luxury that I can afford. IMO, waiting until 2024 for a vehicle I put $1500.00 down is a good hedge. This gives Rivian the time to sort out the beta issues, improve build quality and hopefully, deliver a 2.0 vehicle based on a beta/1.0 order and price.

 

[Chris S]

I love Rivian's products, but the leadership leaves a lot to be desired, and they lost my loyalty after they screwed me with the price increase. (I sold my reservation, so I can't restore my original LE order/pricing)

Now, I have a Model Y Performance coming in May, and a Bronco Badlands scheduled to be built the week of 5/30.

 

[tinkermo]

OP, this title sounds a little "click-bait"-y. Why would you come into a forum of rabid enthusiasts, and tell them their baby is ugly.

I guess to get replies, and since I am replying, success. Well done OP, but I will see your ploy next time!!!!

 

[daeHelkcunK]

I wasn't comparing it. I was using it as an example of how misplaced the R1S is in the market place. Doesn't fit in the middle (too expensive) doesn't fit at the top (too nichy and outclassed in luxury).

I think it’s pretty premature to determine if the R1S is outclassed in luxury having not driven one or even read a respectable review. The suspension system is 2nd to none (including Porsche), the off road abilities are on par with a Wrangler and Range Rover and likely exceeding anything else, and it’s on road performance is more than adequate ( as the Rolls Royce marketing likes to say). The interior sound levels are extraordinarily low 67db at 70mph. I’m thinking that the R1S will be the understated luxury bargain of the near future.

 

[daeHelkcunK]

I’ve owned three Audis and two BMWs and (in spite of many, many test drives) have never owned a Mercedes because I can’t stand the way that they drive. And their SUVs drive way worse than their sedans. No, Mercedes has not locked up the luxury electric SUV market with one vehicle that will 100% cost well over $100K out the door.

R1S is the electric Land Rover that Land Rover never bothered to build. And it drives a hell of a lot better than any Land Rover. When they roll out the lower end Rivians, they’ll probably compete more directly with Subaru and Jeep but we’ll see.

Couldn’t agree more! MB and Range Rover just too soft and wallowing. I tried to love a GLS and an X7 but ended up with another Cayenne S. Porsche seems to have the suspension sorted out in a Goldilocks just right sense. From what I’ve read, the Rivian suspension is on par with the Cayenne. Hope that’s true.

 

[resteb]

Took delivery of an R1T April 7th, and expecting my R1S 1st half of next year. Started buying the stock now at these new lows once I started driving, Rivian is delivering. What everyone seems to be missing is just how incredible 4 motors is vs. a single motor and 4WD tranny. Shame on Jeep for trying to replace a single ICE engine with a single Hybrid or BEV engine. The Rivian has no sway bar disconnect because it has no sway bar and no locking differentials, etc. This is next level of engineering and they have a decade+ head start without the legacy drag (unions, supplier contracts, massive soon-to-be obsolete factories, etc.). Driving off road is so nimble - compared to the spinning tires of Jeep with everything locked. And the car doesn't beat you up like a Jeep when on highways or driving everyday drives.

Traditional Automakers have already lost the battle and the war. Expect a wave of bankruptcies while Rivian, Tesla, and others grow. Think legacy camera makers vs. Apple iPhone.

There is definitely a market - compare to Jeep, Land Rover, Toyota FJ, G Wagon, etc. The luxury is there in the Rivian AND the fun AND the capability AND the Technology. If they deliver on self-driving in National Parks and other cool features, I don't see why they won't have the same kind of life-long following that Jeep does. Wait until they have their own in vehicle app store - looking forward to All Trails, OnX OffRoad, Netflix, etc... Rivian has SW devs, like their own, under 40 years old. Legacy auto has bureaucratic organizations run by MBAs that outsource everything. Sure they are using their lobbyists and political ties to slow down the inevitable, shows how incapable they are of making the transition and just how scared they really are.

 

[daeHelkcunK]

Longtime lurker with March 2021 pre-order date. My original and current configuration is an Adventure R1T with the Max Pack. I'm keeping the Max Pack because every available inch of towing is important to me. So likely (hopefully) I'll see a vehicle in roughly a year. While my 2500 Suburban 3/4 ton has done good for me, in the interim I need a new tow vehicle. So I'm off to the Chevy dealership next week to pick-up a new Silverado 3500 Diesel. A MUCH different vehicle than the R1T!

With that background and to the point.. I was reading the news today of the arrival of the Mercedes EQS EV SUV in showrooms later this year. No pricing yet but likely around $100k. Then there is the Hyundai Ioniq 5 around $55k. Both sharp looking SUV EVs. Then you have the R1S with a base price of $79k to upwards of $90k for an Quad Motor equip Adventure R1S. So I pose the question...for someone shopping for an SUV EV today...who would choose an R1S to put a deposit on? It strikes me that the answer is "no one." The R1S is so very misplaced in the marketplace; it doesn't seem to fit anywhere. Mercedes has luxury sewed up at the moment with EQS in my mind. Hyundai will dominate the mid market almost certainly. Maybe for a select few niche buyers R1S I suppose..because they want a tank turn?

Then there is the R1T. I'd love to have it now. It would solve a bunch of problems for me. Give me ONE vehicle as Daily driver, occasional tow vehicle with lot's of early adopter coolness. But I can't get one for a year. In the meantime I'll be driving around a Chevy diesel and probably talk to the dealer about getting in the Silverado EV line while I'm there next week. In a year from now, am I really still gonna want the R1T? I don't know but I'm guessing I might not. Particularly when I have a perfectly good 1 year old diesel AND MAYBE just a hop skip and jump away from getting into Silverado EV with just a little more waiting. A truck with an actual dealer to service it and very little corporate existential risk.

Of course all of this is mostly off the cuff thoughts, particular to me and just my opinion. But with each passing day it seems clearer and clearer to me that Rivian has lost the EV SUV & truck battle AND likely the war as well.

Longtime lurker with March 2021 pre-order date. My original and current configuration is an Adventure R1T with the Max Pack. I'm keeping the Max Pack because every available inch of towing is important to me. So likely (hopefully) I'll see a vehicle in roughly a year. While my 2500 Suburban 3/4 ton has done good for me, in the interim I need a new tow vehicle. So I'm off to the Chevy dealership next week to pick-up a new Silverado 3500 Diesel. A MUCH different vehicle than the R1T!

With that background and to the point.. I was reading the news today of the arrival of the Mercedes EQS EV SUV in showrooms later this year. No pricing yet but likely around $100k. Then there is the Hyundai Ioniq 5 around $55k. Both sharp looking SUV EVs. Then you have the R1S with a base price of $79k to upwards of $90k for an Quad Motor equip Adventure R1S. So I pose the question...for someone shopping for an SUV EV today...who would choose an R1S to put a deposit on? It strikes me that the answer is "no one." The R1S is so very misplaced in the marketplace; it doesn't seem to fit anywhere. Mercedes has luxury sewed up at the moment with EQS in my mind. Hyundai will dominate the mid market almost certainly. Maybe for a select few niche buyers R1S I suppose..because they want a tank turn?

Then there is the R1T. I'd love to have it now. It would solve a bunch of problems for me. Give me ONE vehicle as Daily driver, occasional tow vehicle with lot's of early adopter coolness. But I can't get one for a year. In the meantime I'll be driving around a Chevy diesel and probably talk to the dealer about getting in the Silverado EV line while I'm there next week. In a year from now, am I really still gonna want the R1T? I don't know but I'm guessing I might not. Particularly when I have a perfectly good 1 year old diesel AND MAYBE just a hop skip and jump away from getting into Silverado EV with just a little more waiting. A truck with an actual dealer to service it and very little corporate existential risk.

Of course all of this is mostly off the cuff thoughts, particular to me and just my opinion. But with each passing day it seems clearer and clearer to me that Rivian has lost the EV SUV & truck battle AND likely the war as well.

As a fellow Porschephile and general automotive freak I have to agree that Rivian has experienced a few teething problems. When I first read about Rivian and they introduced the R1T I had never seen such a well conceived vehicle that checked so many boxes. Long range, incredible performance on and off road, water fording over 3 feet, comfortable looking interior, novel features etc..l was smitten. Learning more about the development team and RJ’s engineering background it was even more enticing so I ordered an R1T and R1S. The fact that this young environmentally conscious guy had the will to produce such a groundbreaking vehicle was even more appealing when it was a domestic production. Not China. Not Europe. Not Japan. This is a world class effort by a very young but world class team. I have fully consumed the Kool Aid and will be happy to support a group like this. Their timing has been rough but the end result will be successful because their product is so far superior to their competitors. They’re winning the war. The stock will recover and people who truly know cars will continue to invest.
Rivian is worth the wait.

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