Looking for home solar advice

[Moon]

I got access to my solar edge inverter and can see each panel production. Plus the inverter states how many optimizers are reporting. My said 23/24 so I knew 1 panel was down.

Oh, it does not work anymore, now that Tesla has their own string Inverter.

Oh.. maybe putting the cart before the horse here, but try to go with the Emphase IQ microinverters vs. old school optimizers and string inverters.

You use one microinverter per panel and don't need any other conversion equipment downstream. That also means if you lose on panel or microinverter.. that's all you lose, it doesn't take out a good portion of your array like the optimizer/string inverter system does.

We have to agree with @NY_Rob, this is true for Tesla installations these days.

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[mpw81]

@Sgt Beavis - as a Coloradan presumably on Xcel energy, keep in mind that Xcel will only let you size your system to 120% of your current 3-month average usage. It may not matter what the installer wants to do, it will be dependent on what Xcel allows. Also, here in Colorado, Xcel is running about 3 months of lead time to inspect/approve the system before it can start generating.

Adding to JeremyP above, although it may be moot.... our installer told us about the 120% limit but said that they could ask for an exception by showing a purchase agreement for an new EV, or other proof of expected energy increase (gas to electric range transition, etc).

 

[F1shSkier]

+1 to finding a couple local companies and get 2-3 quotes. Ask the same questions to each one and see what they say. Then follow up with them a day or two later with more questions that you think of. The honest ones that care about you as a customer will take the time to explain everything you want to know. At least that's how I do it here in Iowa.

Compare quotes based on how much annual production you should expect versus the total cost for you. Depending on panel layout and inverter, you can get very different numbers.

 

[NY_Rob]

That's not true with the opimizers. I have those and and string inverter and lost a panel early on (manufacturing defect). Only that 1 panel went out, not the entire string.

I went with Tesla 5 years ago since they were the cheapest. Installation crew was teriffic and I've only had one issue (dead panel) that they replaced. No other issues.

I didn't single out the optimizers, but they have to be used with old school string inverters. If one of the inverters go down you lose everything connected to it. For instance you have a 15kW system using three 5kW inverters and one goes down, you just lost 1/3 of your system for however long it takes to source/install/provision an new inverter. The beauty of the Enphase microinverter system is that each panel/microinverter stands alone. In a 45 panel system if a microinverter goes bad, the other 44 panels can still produce at 100%.

In the 3.5 yrs I've had my system (43 LG panels/43 Emphase IQ7 microinverters) I have never had even one failure while a work buddy with Solar Edge optimizers and two inverters has been down three times for extended periods losing a good portion of his array each time. Over the 3.5 yrs he's repalced two inverters and several optimizers already. As a matter of fact, one of his inverters is currently putting out only about 60% of rated power and it's been 2+ months trying to get a replacement so far. He's trying to get the installer to buy back the optimizers and inverters so he can convert to Emphase microinverters, but that's been a no-go so far as the installer only installs Emphase based systems now.

 

[SANZC02]

Lots of good advice in this thread. One additional thing you should consider is the condition and age of your roof. If it’s old or in anything other than good shape, you may not want to spend a bunch of money on solar knowing that you’ll need to spend more to have it removed, stored (if you don’t have space) and then re-installed whenever your roof needs work. Not every solar installer will tell you this, unfortunately.

Another thing to think about, especially regarding local companies, is that most if not all of the large regional companies use subcontractors to do the installation. That means you might get the exact same crew showing up to punch holes in your roof whether you go with Tesla or Joe’s Local Solar. I know this from experience, as I used a regional solar company (via EnergySage) and while they do have local employees, the installers who did mine were all subcontractors. One even showed up wearing a Tesla t-shirt, and when I asked him about it he said he also did jobs for Tesla.

In the end, I wish I had just gone with Tesla. Yes, microinverters (which I have) are newer technology, but you really can’t beat Tesla’s pricing. If you’re also adding battery backup, then you won’t find anything even close.

Good point on the roof.

As a side, if the solar contract includes the roof as a mandatory replace and includes it in the contract, the portion under the solar panels will qualify for the solar install tax credit.

 

[NY_Rob]

Good point on the roof.

As a side, if the solar contract includes the roof as a mandatory replace and includes it in the contract, the portion under the solar panels will qualify for the solar install tax credit.

Same credit will apply if you need to upgrade your electrical panel in order to accommodate the solar system.

 

[emoore]

I didn't single out the optimizers, but they have to be used with old school string inverters. If one of the inverters go down you lose everything connected to it. For instance you have a 15kW system using three 5kW inverters and one goes down, you just lost 1/3 of your system for however long it takes to source/install/provision an new inverter. The beauty of the Enphase microinverter system is that each panel/microinverter stands alone. In a 45 panel system if a microinverter goes bad, the other 44 panels can still produce at 100%.

In the 3.5 yrs I've had my system (43 LG panels/43 Emphase IQ7 microinverters) I have never had even one failure while a work buddy with Solar Edge optimizers and two inverters has been down three times for extended periods losing a good portion of his array each time. Over the 3.5 yrs he's repalced two inverters and several optimizers already. As a matter of fact, one of his inverters is currently putting out only about 60% of rated power and it's been 2+ months trying to get a replacement so far. He's trying to get the installer to buy back the optimizers and inverters so he can convert to Emphase microinverters, but that's been a no-go so far as the installer only installs Emphase based systems now.

must be something wrong with those string inverters he's installing. I've had mine for 5 years and no issues at all. I actually wanted the string inverter over the microinverters, since you only have to replace one inverter and it doesn't require getting on the roof. Plus it was cheaper.

 

[Hoo D. Hoo]

I am trying out https://www.energysage.com/ have not picked a provider yet but it looks promising.

I used https://www.energysage.com and found it to be a terrific resource. I located a local, family-owned business that only does residential solar installs, and was no-nonsense and true to every word it spoke. (For those in the D.C. area, https://novasolar.com/ -- they were outstanding.) Energy Sage had a lot of research resources available so I could educate myself at the beginning of the process and not rely on a lot of hand-holding from the provider.

All of them use satellite photos of your roof these days (so do roofing companies) -- that's just efficiency at work. (Not a sign of short-cutting.) My $0.02 is that you want to meet and take the measure of the people who will actually design and oversee the install (not just the sales rep), so you know they're competent, have attention to detail, and will be responsive.

For me, aesthetics was really important. I wanted a solid rectangle of good-looking, high-efficiency black panels, with all of the conduit run in clean, orderly, and mostly-hidden fashion, rather than someone who was just going to slap panels all over the roof higgledy-piggledy, to get as many of them on there as quickly as possible. I also wanted someone I could trust not to cut corners with the permitting and inspection. After talking to four different companies it was easy to weed down to two proposals to take seriously, and one stood out over the other. The advantage of the residential-only company was that I was not an afterthought behind their commercial-installation business. Houses like mine are all they do, and they have it down to a well-oiled process.

If you can swing it, paying for it outright and owning it gets you the best financial benefit. Leasing it for $0 down is better than nothing, but then the provider gets a lot of the benefit, and if you have to sell, the system can be a hindrance. Some buyers may not want it, and there may be significant transaction costs to transferring it or having it removed. If it's a paid-for part of the house, though, then it's an asset that should boost the value if you have to sell.

And beware "solar loans"--they have large initiation fees that again allow the lender to reap a lot of the benefit. You'll keep that benefit for yourself if you go with regular home improvement financing (HELOC, second mortgage, or cash).

Last thing, a rooftop solar installation and a roof both have a service life of 25-30 years. Make sure they're in sync. If you don't know what kind of shape your roof is in, update or replace that first. Then you'll be set for the new install.

 

[Hoo D. Hoo]

Oh.. maybe putting the cart before the horse here, but try to go with the Emphase IQ microinverters vs. old school optimizers and string inverters.

You use one microinverter per panel and don't need any other conversion equipment downstream. That also means if you lose one panel or microinverter.. that's all you lose, it doesn't take out a good portion of your array like the optimizer/string inverter system does.

+1 for the Enphase microinverters. That's what I got -- it's all that company installs.

 

[Hoo D. Hoo]

Same credit will apply if you need to upgrade your electrical panel in order to accommodate the solar system.

Mine even reminded me that if I cut down a couple trees to avoid throwing shadows on the roof, that qualified as part of the install cost for the credit.

 

[NY_Rob]

must be something wrong with those string inverters he's installing. I've had mine for 5 years and no issues at all. I actually wanted the string inverter over the microinverters, since you only have to replace one inverter and it doesn't require getting on the roof. Plus it was cheaper.

Yes, there was definitely something wrong with the inverters so they got replaced under warranty. The company we both used even offered to pay him for the lost production he experenced while waiting for a replacement inverter. Unfortunately, Solar Edge changed the design of their inverters since his initial install in 2018, so now he's got two different size units on the side of his house... it looks kind of sketchy now. Let's see what they replace the 4 yr old inverter with now.. hopefully it will match the unit they replaced 1.5yrs ago.

He's also had optimizers (2 or 3) go bad over the last 4yrs.


Here's my stats since going on line in Jan 2019 (FWIW our electricity is $0.25 kWh here)

 

[JerseyGreens]

I just can't get over the hump on solar yet. My home was built in 2018 and my electric bill averages $150 a month...now that doesn't yet include charging my Rivian...it's a very energy efficient home.

That's almost a 20 year payback period at a roughly 40k install cost...I'm all in once the payback comes close to 10 years give or take.

I might be thinking of this incorrectly. I apologize for my basic understanding but would love some enlightenment from the group (no pun intended).

 

[Florida Panhandler]

I installed a 7.6kw SolarEdge inverter system with a grid-tied 9.1kw worth of panels on my roof 2 years ago mainly for my Tesla Model 3 and it has been great. i got gouged for $4/w Because of my zip code- a common issue I have found for all other forms of service here as well. However my Rivian R1S is going to require much more kw if driven as much as we drive our M3. So now I am thinking I might install a stand-alone 3kw system myself on my property for much cheaper price about 100 ft away from the house dedicated mostly to just charging the Rivian and emergency battery household backup.I have a long 0.5 acre property which has room to spare for 8 panels on a ground-mount system and placed hidden so it will not bother any neighbors.

 

[NY_Rob]

I just can't get over the hump on solar yet. My home was built in 2018 and my electric bill averages $150 a month...now that doesn't yet include charging my Rivian...it's a very energy efficient home.

That's almost a 20 year payback period at a roughly 40k install cost...I'm all in once the payback comes close to 10 years give or take.

I might be thinking of this incorrectly. I apologize for my basic understanding but would love some enlightenment from the group (no pun intended).

Solar doesn't make sense for everyone, nothing wrong with that.

If my electric bill was $150/month I probably wouldn't have gone w/solar. But, at 25cents/kWh with two EV's (hopefully s00n to be 3 EV's) it's very easy to rack up $250-$300/month electric bills.

Once one of my kids move out (and takes their EV with them) and I have a lot of extra kWh to spare, I'm going to install a 50 gallon 240V electric hot water heater and have my baseboard heating water run through that to relieve my boiler a bit. A few years ago I modded my home heating system to run on 100-140F water, so my solar panels will be heating the house then too.

 

[RoadRunner]

I just can't get over the hump on solar yet. My home was built in 2018 and my electric bill averages $150 a month...now that doesn't yet include charging my Rivian...it's a very energy efficient home.

That's almost a 20 year payback period at a roughly 40k install cost...I'm all in once the payback comes close to 10 years give or take.

I might be thinking of this incorrectly. I apologize for my basic understanding but would love some enlightenment from the group (no pun intended).

We just installed Solar in February 2022 and I think you ARE thinking incorrectly (or really, not taking a couple things into consideration that change the math significantly):

1. 30% Federal tax credit plus possible state/local incentives. For NM there is an extra 10% tax credit so a total of 40% off the total cost.

2. The price of electricity rises something like 5% per year on average. Over the ~30 year lifetime of your panels, this means your total electricity bill will be a LOT higher than just $150/month times 30 years.

If you can afford to install solar now, your payback time should be less than 10 years given these 2 factors. And after that ~10 years you are getting free energy for the next 20 years.

If you don't want to do the math contact a few local providers and they'll do it for you. Also look at the Energysage and SolarNerd websites.

Our Electric bill was about $115/month and we could have zeroed it out with a system that was about 4.5 KW for around $20K which would have paid for itself in 5-7 years. We ended up doing a larger system - 18 440W panels or 7.92 KW, in order to have some extra capacity for charging an EV. We paid just under $30K before the 40% tax credits. After tax credits the cost to us will be about $18K and the payback time will still be less than 10 years (at our old usage rates, not even taking into account using the extra power to charge a Rivian etc).

Total cost of electricity over 25 years (without adding in additional consumption) would have been close to $60K. Add the extra power to charge 1-2 EV's and it would likely be more like $90-120K over 25 years - factoring in annual rate increases of about 5%. So our out of pocket expense of $18K looks like a pretty great investment to me, and I no longer have to care when electricity rates go up every year.

Our system so far has generated just over twice the power we actually use, we've had no issues with it, and are banking the extra power as credits for when we do start using more to charge an EV or 2 etc. Hopefully by this time next year we'll be charging our R1S for free!

With the tax credits and the volatility of energy prices, IMHO solar panels are a no-brainer as long as you don't plan on moving before it pays for itself. And even then it may add value to the house if you sell.

We do live in NM so we get lots of sun, the math may not be as good in NJ but the local installers should be able to run the numbers for you. Obviously check their work and compare quotes etc...

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