Mixed Signals from Governments on EV Proliferation

[moosetags]

I guess that next EVers will have to make up for the lost revenues that were generated by emissions inspection.

Brian

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[Zoidz]

It is easy enough to create a device that records mileage by state using gps.

This device would need to be very simple, with no form of wireless communication. Also the software used would need to be open source software, inspectable by the public. This way the device would not track your location, and would not be capable of being hacked or warranted to turn into a tracking device.

Then much like large metropolitan areas and emissions testing, states can set up annual inspections that manually download the data, prior to being eligible for license plate renewal.

In theory, it could be as "simple" as adding a GPS & state geofence logging requirement to the OBD standard. But regardless of the tech/open source, conspiracy minded people will say "they're tracking us!!!"

 

[zefram47]

It is easy enough to create a device that records mileage by state using gps.

This device would need to be very simple, with no form of wireless communication. Also the software used would need to be open source software, inspectable by the public. This way the device would not track your location, and would not be capable of being hacked or warranted to turn into a tracking device.

Then much like large metropolitan areas and emissions testing, states can set up annual inspections that manually download the data, prior to being eligible for license plate renewal.

Hilarious you think such a device couldn't or wouldn't be used for tracking, even if reduced to only getting data after the fact via download. But hey, many of us drive around in vehicles that actually do track us via their telematics and of course through our cell phones. Maybe people really don't care. ?‍ And anything that would be capable of using OBD data for this purpose would also have vehicle speed along with that location data. How long before we'd start getting speeding tickets in the mail after that annual check?

 

[Craigins]

In theory, it could be as "simple" as adding a GPS & state geofence logging requirement to the OBD standard. But regardless of the tech/open source, conspiracy minded people will say "they're tracking us!!!"

No, because adding it to the onboard system allows for the unwanted tracking.

Creating a stand alone device with no wireless communication hardware (aside from the gps receiver), and open sourced software that shows that only state level aggregated data are stored prevent that behavior. You could go even further and severely limit the device writable storage to 4 bytes per state. This way the device would be incapable of tracking users position.

Sure you'd still have the crazies that wouldn't believe it.

 

[Craigins]

Hilarious you think such a device couldn't or wouldn't be used for tracking, even if reduced to only getting data after the fact via download. But hey, many of us drive around in vehicles that actually do track us via their telematics and of course through our cell phones. Maybe people really don't care. ?‍ And anything that would be capable of using OBD data for this purpose would also have vehicle speed along with that location data. How long before we'd start getting speeding tickets in the mail after that annual check?

I'm sorry that you lack the understanding that it is possible to create a device that is physically unable to store users location history.

 

[Zoidz]

No, because adding it to the onboard system allows for the unwanted tracking.

Creating a stand alone device with no wireless communication hardware (aside from the gps receiver), and open sourced software that shows that only state level aggregated data are stored prevent that behavior. You could go even further and severely limit the device writable storage to 4 bytes per state. This way the device would be incapable of tracking users position.

Sure you'd still have the crazies that wouldn't believe it.

I think you missed my point. I intentionally said add the *requirement* to the *OBD standard*. Let the existing international standards community who have done this for decades decide how it should be implemented and issue a new SAE and/or ISO spec, and it comes from a well-established community familiar with the ins and outs of on board systems and dealing with a gazillion manufacturers. If they decide it should be physically isolated, specify open source, hardwire only connectivity, etc., awesome. Just don't put it in the hands of clueless politicians who will be paid by lobbyists from Manufacturer XYZ to implement the standard.

 

[sub]

I agree the device described by @Craigins would not be that hard to implement and is ideal from a privacy perspective.

But it seems like an unnecessary complication since the government already has data on how much and where you are driving via licence plate scanners.

I wish it was illegal for the police to install license plate scanners all over the place, but since that isn't happening they might as well use the data they have instead of wasting money on a milage/location tracking gadget.

 

[Zoidz]

I agree the device described by @Craigins would not be that hard to implement and is ideal from a privacy perspective.

But it seems like an unnecessary complication since the government already has data on how much and where you are driving via licence plate scanners.

I wish it was illegal for the police to install license plate scanners all over the place, but since that isn't happening they might as well use the data they have instead of wasting money on a milage/location tracking gadget.

And don't forget EZPass. Anyone who has one can be tracked outside of official toll plazas, and definitely is or has been in Manhattan and presumably elsewhere. Here's detailed info including supporting Freedom Of Information Law documents - not a conspiracy theory. And we agreed to it when we got our EZPass:

"Non-Disclosure
E-ZPass respects the privacy of all Account holders. Account information may be shared among the agencies, but will not be disclosed to third parties without your consent except as required or permitted by law and the policies of E-ZPass services. "

 

[Craigins]

And don't forget EZPass. Anyone who has one can be tracked outside of official toll plazas, and definitely is or has been in Manhattan and presumably elsewhere. Here's detailed info including supporting Freedom Of Information Law documents - not a conspiracy theory. And we agreed to it when we got our EZPass:

"Non-Disclosure
E-ZPass respects the privacy of all Account holders. Account information may be shared among the agencies, but will not be disclosed to third parties without your consent except as required or permitted by law and the policies of E-ZPass services. "

Yup, that's why if something is government mandated it needs to be wired not wireless.

 

[ads75]

And don't forget EZPass. Anyone who has one can be tracked outside of official toll plazas, and definitely is or has been in Manhattan and presumably elsewhere. Here's detailed info including supporting Freedom Of Information Law documents - not a conspiracy theory. And we agreed to it when we got our EZPass:

About 15-20 years ago I car pooled with someone I worked with for a little while where we had to go through a toll on a bridge to get to work (we both lived in Delaware and worked in NJ, crossed Delaware Memorial Bridge). He didn't want to get EZ Pass because "the government was tracking him". I guess the cell phone in his pocket was in aluminum foil. I didn't want to wait an extra 20 minutes in line to pay a toll on days when he drove. Car pool did not last long.

 

[Riviot]

About 15-20 years ago I car pooled with someone I worked with for a little while where we had to go through a toll on a bridge to get to work (we both lived in Delaware and worked in NJ, crossed Delaware Memorial Bridge). He didn't want to get EZ Pass because "the government was tracking him". I guess the cell phone in his pocket was in aluminum foil. I didn't want to wait an extra 20 minutes in line to pay a toll on days when he drove. Car pool did not last long.

When we go through GoodToGo toll lanes out here, I habitually flip the visor down to block the camera from seeing my face. My wife will always gently remind me, "You aren't that interesting..."

Which of course I snuff at before sticking my nose back into the camera/tracking device I keep with me at all times.

 

[Eeyore]

Opposition to a tax you would currently have to pay, but accepting this tax when you don't have to pay it while reaping the benefits, is textbook Baby Boomer behavior. Look at the tax breaks following that generation for the last three decades.

-1990s tax changes to income and homeownership (boomer wealth building years)
Don't those changes benefit you too, or were they just for people of certain ages?

-Early 2000s tax changes to retirement investment (boomers preparing to retire)
Don't those changes benefit you too, or were they just for people of certain ages?

-2002 change to estate tax (greatest generation dying and boomer inheritance)
No benefit to me. I'm not going it inherit much, if anything, from either of my very old parents. They have lived long lives and while they have been quite thrifty, neither is wealthy. I expect their timing to be pretty good. They have enough money to take of them to the end, and not much more

-2005 attempt to privatize social security for non-boomers while keeping it in tact for boomers
Totally not on me. I completely disagree with this. Pretty sure that the companies that would benefit the most were pushing this stupid idea.

-2017 tax cuts benefiting corporations and shareholders (boomer retirees) while increasing taxes for income earners
Again, I completely disagree with giving large corporations tax breaks. If they want to be "people" in the legal sense, them they should pay the same tax rate as the highest earners. If shareholders benefit, doesn't mean that you benefit as well? If you have a retirement account of some kind that has equities in it, you do. You probably also own some stock yourself.

??

I did say that I am of the boomer generation, albeit at the very end, so I haven't had as much benefit from those tax changes you mention.

Don't paint with such a big brush when you lump all of one generation together.

Again, I'm fine with paying gas tax for my Civic. I'd rather not pay a per mile tax because I have a long commute, which is my choice. That doesn't make me eager to pay more.

 

[SeaGeo]

Guys. Stop trying to cracking the mileage case. You have better things to do with you time and people are already working to study different approaches for many of the issues you're trying to solve (and more).

Like... how did we make that sweet ass light bar a quick connect!?

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