Solar Panels and Battery Backup

[iansriv]

What strikes me as "funny" is that the government is always promoting green energy but there is very little incentive for the consumer. I would love to see better net-metering.

NB: this is not a political statement.

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[Electrified Outdoors]

Powerwall is good and note that if you have a power outage that solar production will stop if you have no powerwall. This is done to protect line workers.

Right now the rivian is not able to supply power directly to the home. You do have the 1500 w inverter but otherwise vehicle to home or vehicle to grid is not yet supported and we don't know what will be required if and when it is. All the rivian has said that they will eventually support V2H.

Powerwall will also be able to participate in virtual power plant services if and when they become available in your area. These vpp programs are another thing that help help offset the cost of the system.

 

[runningdenver]

I’m in the process of getting solar myself in Colorado.

Solar seems very worth it with CA utility rates. I suspect a battery is also worth it given my surface-level understanding of CA’s new net metering rules.

The battery is less for outages and more for managing net metering pricing. Although it would be nice for outages as well.

Talk to installers about the cost of a system with and without batteries. The new version of Tesla’s Powerwall comes with a built-in string inverter, so it avoids some other system costs. My system designed with and without a battery involved different design decisions around inverters, panel size, and panel manufacturer.

The battery version of the solar system actually ended up being about the same price as without a battery. Although there were some other differences in the system, and my utility is heavily incentivizing batteries.

I’m in Denver and have a tesla solar system with a powerwall. I originally got the powerwall thinking I’d use it to sell back at peak rates, but in reality it’s been far more useful for backup. Xcel sucks here, and our neighborhood in S Denver had at least 5 outages of multiple hours this summer. The only way I realized the power was out, was because Xcel texted me to let me know, and gave me an estimated restoration time (hours later). The outages were all during the day (Xcel can’t handle the demands of all the AC’s running in Denver…), so the solar was powering the house, and the powerwall barely dropped. I work from home, so this was a big deal for me. Nextdoor was awash with complaints about xcel and the inconvenience of the outages, but there was no impact to me - other than smugness for having the powerwall…. So don’t discount the backup functionality.

 

[BigSkies]

I’m in Denver and have a tesla solar system with a powerwall. I originally got the powerwall thinking I’d use it to sell back at peak rates, but in reality it’s been far more useful for backup. Xcel sucks here, and our neighborhood in S Denver had at least 5 outages of multiple hours this summer. The only way I realized the power was out, was because Xcel texted me to let me know, and gave me an estimated restoration time (hours later). The outages were all during the day (Xcel can’t handle the demands of all the AC’s running in Denver…), so the solar was powering the house, and the powerwall barely dropped. I work from home, so this was a big deal for me. Nextdoor was awash with complaints about xcel and the inconvenience of the outages, but there was no impact to me - other than smugness for having the powerwall…. So don’t discount the backup functionality.

True. It's very multi-purpose. I think the net-metering side of the equation is more important in California with their new net metering rules. Backup would be a bigger part of the equation in rural areas where a snowstorm can take down powerlines for long periods of time.

I think it's cool that it's a technology with multiple benefits like this.

I'm also on XCEL, but happen to be in a neighborhood where power outages are rare.

I just put the deposit down for my system a few days ago. I did want the battery system, as it was slightly cheaper than not doing it with XCEL's new incentives. Why wouldn't I?

However, I ran into problems with finding a good location for it. Per Denver code, they have to be 3ft from a window, 3ft from my heat-pump, and can't sit over a window well. The places on my house that met these criteria involved running a lot of conduit (at extra cost) across my patio in places I don't really want conduit. I could have made it work, but it was a lot of complexity and ugliness for something that's a "nice to have" in my personal situation.

 

[iansriv]

Powerwall is good and note that if you have a power outage that solar production will stop if you have no powerwall. This is done to protect line workers.

Wonder why systems without batteries can't just be diverted off the grid and just to the house, in-case of grid being down etc?

 

[runningdenver]

True. It's very multi-purpose. I think the net-metering side of the equation is more important in California with their new net metering rules. Backup would be a bigger part of the equation in rural areas where a snowstorm can take down powerlines for long periods of time.

I think it's cool that it's a technology with multiple benefits like this.

I'm also on XCEL, but happen to be in a neighborhood where power outages are rare.

I just put the deposit down for my system a few days ago. I did want the battery system, as it was slightly cheaper than not doing it with XCEL's new incentives. Why wouldn't I?

However, I ran into problems with finding a good location for it. Per Denver code, they have to be 3ft from a window, 3ft from my heat-pump, and can't sit over a window well. The places on my house that met these criteria involved running a lot of conduit (at extra cost) across my patio in places I don't really want conduit. I could have made it work, but it was a lot of complexity and ugliness for something that's a "nice to have" in my personal situation.

Have you gone through the Xcel approval yet ? That was the part that pissed me off the most… we had a solar array that got us to 100% of typical bills, but Xcel vetoed it !! They told us we needed to reduce the size. It’s crazy that the electricity company that I was trying to get away from, has the ability to deny the system based on size. I’m assuming because excess goes back to them, so they can claim they don’t want people generating power for a profit. Talk about a monopoly. So we had to reconfigure it to be smaller (80 something %), and then got it approved. Tesla told me there was no other choice, although I suspect they just didn’t want to have to deal with the extra work. Grrr !

 

[Games Benedict]

One thing to be careful about is the financing. A lot of these Solar Financing programs are actually liens against your house... or worse, part of a program that ties the loan to your Taxes. In each case the solar loan may be in First Position over your mortgage, meaning you have to pay off the loan if you want to sell your house. Or, get the new owners to assume the loan if that is allowable in the contract. If you are able, just purchase the system with cash or get a HELOC and purchase with that cash. Project Solar is a good source. They help you design the system and provide direct connects to the parts suppliers so you can but it all and install yourself.

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

Wonder why systems without batteries can't just be diverted off the grid and just to the house, in-case of grid being down etc?

nowhere for the excess power to go if you have no grid and no battery storage. no way to compensate for fluctuation in solar output.

Solar system needs a battery...if your grid tied with no battery storage then the grid is your battery...but in that scenario you lose power when the grid loses power.

 

[BigSkies]

Have you gone through the Xcel approval yet ? That was the part that pissed me off the most… we had a solar array that got us to 100% of typical bills, but Xcel vetoed it !! They told us we needed to reduce the size. It’s crazy that the electricity company that I was trying to get away from, has the ability to deny the system based on size. I’m assuming because excess goes back to them, so they can claim they don’t want people generating power for a profit. Talk about a monopoly. So we had to reconfigure it to be smaller (80 something %), and then got it approved. Tesla told me there was no other choice, although I suspect they just didn’t want to have to deal with the extra work. Grrr !

That’s my next step, and I’m keeping expectations low. My block has a number of people that have gone fully electric with solar. I know XCEL does some type of calculations on what the transformer can handle. I wouldn’t be surprised if my transformer is nearing those limits.

The system is designed for about 110% of my usage, but I’ll be happy with anything over 80%. My natural gas meter was removed a few months ago, so this will be covering close enough to the entirety of what I used to pay for gasoline, methane, and electricity.

 

[Dhevey]

Some power companies, such as Duke Energy, are now paying people with battery storage to use their batteries on demand. My power bill in North Carolina went from $16.50 per month to -$33.00 per month (They will write me a check when the credit gets too big). The only stipulation is that they can discharge my batteries on an on-demand basis, which will most likely be on cold winter mornings and hot summer evenings. It’s a real win-win, and I hope more companies go this route.

 

[Mathme]

One thing to be careful about is the financing. A lot of these Solar Financing programs are actually liens against your house... or worse, part of a program that ties the loan to your Taxes. In each case the solar loan may be in First Position over your mortgage, meaning you have to pay off the loan if you want to sell your house. Or, get the new owners to assume the loan if that is allowable in the contract. If you are able, just purchase the system with cash or get a HELOC and purchase with that cash. Project Solar is a good source. They help you design the system and provide direct connects to the parts suppliers so you can but it all and install yourself.

Your suggestion doesn't make sense...or at least not from my experience. First, every loan you have on your house be it the first, second, or whatever needs to be paid off prior to closing. So long as you have equity in your house, this is easy to do.

Second, I've done two solar installations within the past four years an in both cases (one time at 0% and another at 0.9% interest) the loans were put on the lien as a second mortgage that's paid off as part of the selling process. As a seller, you simply inform the title company that there's a lien on the property for the amount still financed (like any other loan) and the title company closes it off out of the profits from your escrow. We sold one of the houses about six moths ago, and this was a simple process.

Third, the advice to get a HELOC and use it is also nonsensical. Why would anyone take out (or add to) a HELOC that charges interest based on prime plus a percentage? If I were to have written a check to pay for the $60k in our solar system, then I'd currently be paying about 9% interest to the bank in addition to any monthly principal. Whereas going with a solar loan for 0% interest is a better concept all day long as every dollar paid into that loan goes toward principle. In the mean time, I can use that 9% interest that I'd be paying to the bank for something else.

 

[Hereforthesnacks]

Any decent solar provider will give you a good ROI if you are looking at 10 years out. Always buy the system, don’t lease.

Backup battery use case is really for power outages. Everything else is gravy and you will not make up the battery cost in any savings. Just won’t compute. So, it comes down to how the power is in your area. In the Bay Area part where I am, we lose power maybe once a year for a few hours. Doesn’t make sense to spend $15k to keep power on for that short amount of time. Especially when a couple 1500kw battery generators can keep throngs going very easily and you can use you R1 to recharge them quickly. If you live where power is not as reliable (hurricane, snow, ice, excessive heat in an area where power gets flexed), the use case for battery backup is way way better. So….just think about your current power situation and how often you need your own power.

 

[emoore]

nowhere for the excess power to go if you have no grid and no battery storage. no way to compensate for fluctuation in solar output.

Solar system needs a battery...if your grid tied with no battery storage then the grid is your battery...but in that scenario you lose power when the grid loses power.

I couldn’t justify a battery because my power has gone out twice in 9 years and only for an hour max.

 

[MidnightRun]

Your suggestion doesn't make sense...or at least not from my experience. First, every loan you have on your house be it the first, second, or whatever needs to be paid off prior to closing. So long as you have equity in your house, this is easy to do.

Second, I've done two solar installations within the past four years an in both cases (one time at 0% and another at 0.9% interest) the loans were put on the lien as a second mortgage that's paid off as part of the selling process. As a seller, you simply inform the title company that there's a lien on the property for the amount still financed (like any other loan) and the title company closes it off out of the profits from your escrow. We sold one of the houses about six moths ago, and this was a simple process.

Third, the advice to get a HELOC and use it is also nonsensical. Why would anyone take out (or add to) a HELOC that charges interest based on prime plus a percentage? If I were to have written a check to pay for the $60k in our solar system, then I'd currently be paying about 9% interest to the bank in addition to any monthly principal. Whereas going with a solar loan for 0% interest is a better concept all day long as every dollar paid into that loan goes toward principle. In the mean time, I can use that 9% interest that I'd be paying to the bank for something else.

Where can you get a solar loan at 0% interest in today’s market?

I’m in the process of shopping for solar with battery backup. It seems the average system size quote to me is about 17kw with two Powerwall 3’s and a SPAN smart panel using REC panels.

I’m in Texas so net metering is not a thing and I believe we sell back to the grid at wholesale rates unless you wait for energy events to discharge your system.

I think my neighborhood may be on a protected part of the grid because my neighbors did not lose power during snowmageden a few years ago (my house was under construction).

Is V2H a universally compatible tech? For example, would a Rivian integrate just as well as a Tesla into my solar system?

 

[Mathme]

Hey Salvador...we got our solar about 4 years ago and that was the deal going on at that time. We ended up going through Sunnova (they aren't very good) but I've learned to deal directly with Enphase when I've had a few problems in the past.

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