Why Gen1 doesn't show vehicles behind you

[GuyR1S]

I can accept that we won’t get self driving like capabilities with gen1, at least they can render some cars in the blind spots with the existing cameras…

I like, but don't need FSD - but would sure love to have 'Highway' assist on any road that the truck can 'see' the lane and keep me centered. Why does it only work on what they consider a highway?

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[GuyR1S]

Same for Gen1 getting turn signal cam, it looks like garbage. But hey, we complained loud and hard for that garbage, so we got it!

Many times when I'm making a lane change and can't tell what the hell the camera is showing - I'm glad I have the radio on and if it doesn't lower when I make my move - I guess I'll live to complain another day...

 

[Riviot]

Many times when I'm making a lane change and can't tell what the hell the camera is showing - I'm glad I have the radio on and if it doesn't lower when I make my move - I guess I'll live to complain another day...

 

[pamalabama]

If i'm not mistaken, rivian has 2 autonomy systems in their car. Mobileye which was a stopgap and then their own self driving computer as well.

Rivian not showing vehicles behind you is because they are not incentivized enough to develop their own driving system on the compute that is in the car.

Tesla autopilot runs on such low amounts of compute, that developing this sort of system is not an issue except for rivian not wanting or having the capability to do it

Rivian licensed a cheaper mobileye system hoping that they would build their own that is better. I believe gen 2 systems are just a better mobileye system until rivian builds their own.

Anyone who owns a rivian should monitor their upload bandwidth to see how much the rivian is uploading every month.

Tesla collects 100s of gigabytes a month of raw camera sensor data. Not sure anyone else is collecting data of this quality, but rivian would ideally want this data for their own in-house system. You need this quality of data to identify stationary cars at night because radar is not going to help you identify stationary vehicles

 

[Zoidz]

If i'm not mistaken, rivian has 2 autonomy systems in their car. Mobileye which was a stopgap and then their own self driving computer as well.

Rivian not showing vehicles behind you is because they are not incentivized enough to develop their own driving system on the compute that is in the car.

Tesla autopilot runs on such low amounts of compute, that developing this sort of system is not an issue except for rivian not wanting or having the capability to do it

Rivian licensed a cheaper mobileye system hoping that they would build their own that is better. I believe gen 2 systems are just a better mobileye system until rivian builds their own.

Anyone who owns a rivian should monitor their upload bandwidth to see how much the rivian is uploading every month.

Tesla collects 100s of gigabytes a month of raw camera sensor data. Not sure anyone else is collecting data of this quality, but rivian would ideally want this data for their own in-house system. You need this quality of data to identify stationary cars at night because radar is not going to help you identify stationary vehicles

Gen 2 is reported to be NVidia based, not MobileEye and Rivian shows up on the NVidia Web Site.

 

[mpshizzle]

@pamalabama @Zoidz

Here's what we know for sure:
Gen 1 has ONLY a mobile eye computer for autonomy. They were hoping to be able to integrate their own cameras for use with the mobile system, but it proved to be too locked down of a platform to allow for that

Gen 2 has Nvidia chips in an autonomy computer designed by Rivian.

Here's what has not been explicitly confirmed, but has been hinted at several times (enough to be reasonably confident that this is true):
Gen 2 has I'm more recent and powerful mobile system in addition to the Rivian designed autonomy computer. The idea here is that they can use the mobile eye system while they are gathering data to train their own AI for their own system. From day one it appears that the 360° visualization has been drawn from the Rivian system.

So Gen 2 has both a rivian autonomy computer and a more advanced mobile eye system.

Gen 1 literally doesn't have the hardware capability to make the visualizations happen in 360 degrees.

 

[godfodder0901]

Gen 2 is reported to be NVidia based, not MobileEye and Rivian shows up on the NVidia Web Site.

It definitely has both. No question.

 

[portdirect]

@pamalabama @Zoidz

Here's what we know for sure:
Gen 1 has ONLY a mobile eye computer for autonomy. They were hoping to be able to integrate their own cameras for use with the mobile system, but it proved to be too locked down of a platform to allow for that

Gen 2 has Nvidia chips in an autonomy computer designed by Rivian.

Here's what has not been explicitly confirmed, but has been hinted at several times (enough to be reasonably confident that this is true):
Gen 2 has I'm more recent and powerful mobile system in addition to the Rivian designed autonomy computer. The idea here is that they can use the mobile eye system while they are gathering data to train their own AI for their own system. From day one it appears that the 360° visualization has been drawn from the Rivian system.

So Gen 2 has both a rivian autonomy computer and a more advanced mobile eye system.

Gen 1 literally doesn't have the hardware capability to make the visualizations happen in 360 degrees.

this matches my understanding though that ‘autonomy computer’ is 99% Nvidia’s reference design.

 

[pamalabama]

functionally if you added a bumper camera to a tesla model S, then the hardware suite inside a tesla is not too different from a Gen 2 rivian. Rivian has a lot of corner radar and ultrasonics (which you do not need for driving), but the main forward facing imaging radar, cameras, etc. would be about the same

If tesla ever uses the imaging radar for anything it will be more or less in the same realm

I believe HW4 computer is 200 tops and rivian is 250. But it's possible rivian is 250TOPS per computer which would mean 500 if they ever decided to forgo redundancy

 

[mpshizzle]

functionally if you added a bumper camera to a tesla model S, then the hardware suite inside a tesla is not too different from a Gen 2 rivian. Rivian has a lot of corner radar and ultrasonics (which you do not need for driving), but the main forward facing imaging radar, cameras, etc. would be about the same

If tesla ever uses the imaging radar for anything it will be more or less in the same realm

I believe HW4 computer is 200 tops and rivian is 250. But it's possible rivian is 250TOPS per computer which would mean 500 if they ever decided to forgo redundancy

Goes to show 90% of the battle is a good, well trained, ML model. Tesla has worse (and fewer) cameras, no radars, and less compute. Yet their capabilities are FAR beyond Rivian.

My prediction is that Rivian will improve substantially as they collect more data from the fleet (already the improvement has been rapid and very, very good). But I'm guessing they won't be able to meaningfully compete with Tesla until R2 comes out. They need a much, much higher volume of good training data. Which Tesla has a huge time advantage over Rivian on.

 

[pamalabama]

Goes to show 90% of the battle is a good, well trained, ML model. Tesla has worse (and fewer) cameras, no radars, and less compute. Yet their capabilities are FAR beyond Rivian.

My prediction is that Rivian will improve substantially as they collect more data from the fleet (already the improvement has been rapid and very, very good). But I'm guessing they won't be able to meaningfully compete with Tesla until R2 comes out. They need a much, much higher volume of good training data. Which Tesla has a huge time advantage over Rivian on.

I'd bet tesla cameras are better than rivian. Tesla cameras are a high quality sony imx490 with good dynamic range. Not sure why rivian chose to make their own camera.

Tesla camera design also has a placement and airflow design which is designed to not get dirty.

Model S/X have imaging radar just like rivian and technically imaging radar can be easily retrofit to any HW4 vehicle


How many billions has tesla spent on FSD? 20 billion at this point?

 

[mpshizzle]

I'd bet tesla cameras are better than rivian. Tesla cameras are a high quality sony imx490 with good dynamic range. Not sure why rivian chose to make their own camera.

Tesla camera design also has a placement and airflow design which is designed to not get dirty.

Model S/X have imaging radar just like rivian and technically imaging radar can be easily retrofit to any HW4 vehicle


How many billions has tesla spent on FSD? 20 billion at this point?

Having seen the cameras back to back I can tell you for certain, that Gen 2 rivian cameras are both higher resolution and perform better in low light. Rivian has even publicized as much that they have more camera resolution than any other car on the market. Rivian has five radars, with one imaging radar. Even S/X don't match that.

It is objective fact that Rivian autonomy hardware is higher end than Tesla hardware.

But that doesn't matter. The point that I was trying to make is that Tesla does far more with lesser hardware. I think that is an ode to how good Tesla software is. And no amount of amazing hardware will ever makeup for bad software.

I had the chance to test the Highland model 3 this last weekend (HW 4, of course) and FSD was FLAWLESS. It had just snowed and despite lane lines covered in snow and occasional ice patches it was flawless. Handing weird, non standard intersections that even real humans get confused on regularly. Powerful hardware is good, but powerful software is the important part

 

[pamalabama]

Having seen the cameras back to back I can tell you for certain, that Gen 2 rivian cameras are both higher resolution and perform better in low light. Rivian has even publicized as much that they have more camera resolution than any other car on the market. Rivian has five radars, with one imaging radar. Even S/X don't match that.

It is objective fact that Rivian autonomy hardware is higher end than Tesla hardware.

But that doesn't matter. The point that I was trying to make is that Tesla does far more with lesser hardware. I think that is an ode to how good Tesla software is. And no amount of amazing hardware will ever makeup for bad software.

I had the chance to test the Highland model 3 this last weekend (HW 4, of course) and FSD was FLAWLESS. It had just snowed and despite lane lines covered in snow and occasional ice patches it was flawless. Handing weird, non standard intersections that even real humans get confused on regularly. Powerful hardware is good, but powerful software is the important part

rivian has more resolution but resolution is not everything. They are stating the resolution of all the cameras combined. Rivian certainly has more cameras than tesla.

Higher resolution of cameras is a bad thing if it means smaller photosites and a higher amount of diffraction which hurts sharpness.

Also rivian shows the images of the cameras undistorted which leads to the appearance of better resolution.

What's also important about tesla cameras is they are high end sony automotive sensors. They have literally 4 gain modes and latest generation backside illuminated technology. In terms of dynamic range, the sensor claims 140db and tesla trains on unprocessed, raw sensor data which not only saves on latency, but allows you to "see" small changes in noise floor in dark scenes

And in terms of hardware, rivian has a lot of useless hardware beyond the front facing imaging radar, which tesla also has in the model S/X. If it is needed it will be retrofitted to other models as it is a simple process

I think my argument is rivian can't catch up even with the extra hardware, since the only real advantage rivian has is that not all tesla models have front facing imaging radar and/or bumper camera.

 

[pamalabama]

Brings up an important point. The reason tesla cameras are undistorted (in sentry and/or live view) but rivian's are not is probably because the functionality of undistorting the cameras is built into tesla's full self driving computer.

 

[dleepnw]

Rivian miscalculated the capability of the hardware they installed in Gen1. I'm pretty sure if they could figure it out they would provide more features and functionality not only for Driver+ but general awareness and autonomy. unfortunately, Rivian was way over its skis with Gen1.

its not bait and switch but its very disappointing and way short from what they touted and promised to what we have now.

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