Ford/Tesla Deal: Access to Superchargers, adapter coming, future EVs will have NACS (Tesla) port

[NY_Rob]

They still could, heck, if they make it to the R2 platform, maybe THAT will adapt the NACS spec.

If that actually happens, there will be a couple of heads exploding here.....

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[NY_Rob]

If Ford is paying for access, what happens if they get into a disagreement with Tesla and Tesla cuts them off? It’s like a cable company cutting off access to a station if the don’t like the terms of their contract renewal.

Then they can just use a CCS to Tesla adapter like Tesla owners currently use when charging at CCS stations.

 

[Ralph]

If Ford is paying for access, what happens if they get into a disagreement with Tesla and Tesla cuts them off? It’s like a cable company cutting off access to a station if the don’t like the terms of their contract renewal.

Unless Ford get free access (outside of customers paying for electricity) I’m not sure this will end well.

Maybe Ford is paying for exclusivity for a period of time as a competitive advantage against other late entries. Tesla charging would certainly be a key differentiator in the short time and likely in the long term.

 

[kylealden]

Adapter sounds great. Rivian switching would be suicide.

Tesla's NACS licensing requires mutual patent indemnity. It's mostly upside for Ford, which has relatively slow-charging vehicles, limited investment in O&O charging infrastructure, limited technology differentiation in their EV portfolio, and lots to gain in terms of infrastructure (and quickly).

Rivian has tons of differentiated IP in the drivetrain, suspension, software, etc., huge investments in scaling out charging infrastructure, a desire to support higher voltage architecture in the future, and tons to lose if they cede ground to connector fragmentation.

It's a brilliant strategy from Tesla to disrupt the momentum and consolidation around CCS - they're doing this to fragment the competition, in a way that looks like pure upside to Ford. But it's a nightmare for consolidating on a charging standard in the US. Welcome to the next ten years of standards wars. Sigh.

 

[Ralph]

Adapter sounds great. Rivian switching would be suicide.

Tesla's NACS licensing requires mutual patent indemnity. It's mostly upside for Ford, which has relatively slow-charging vehicles, limited investment in O&O charging infrastructure, limited technology differentiation in their EV portfolio, and lots to gain in terms of infrastructure (and quickly).

Rivian has tons of differentiated IP in the drivetrain, suspension, software, etc., huge investments in scaling out charging infrastructure, a desire to support higher voltage architecture in the future, and tons to lose if they cede ground to connector fragmentation.

It's a brilliant strategy from Tesla to disrupt the momentum and consolidation around CCS - they're doing this to fragment the competition, in a way that looks like pure upside to Ford. But it's a nightmare for consolidating on a charging standard in the US. Welcome to the next ten years of standards wars. Sigh.

An insightful post.

If Tesla really wanted to disrupt the momentum and consolidation of CCS they would seek to make a deal with Wal-Mart. Of course that is easy for someone on the internet to say. It takes two to haggle.

I've seen mention of Wal-Mart's announcement to put chargers in "thousands of stores by 2030" once, buried in another thread, as this now is. Although I realize many people don't want to charge in a giant parking lot (check) or have legitimate issues with the company (check) I'm surprised it is not discussed more here and other places.

The entire April 6, 2023 announcement, as found here:

"As our customers and members continue to look for ways to save money and live better, I am excited to announce our plans at Walmart and Sam’s Club in the U.S. to make electric vehicle (EV) ownership more accessible, reliable, convenient and affordable for them across the country. By 2030, we intend to build our own EV fast-charging network at thousands of Walmart and Sam’s Club locations coast-to-coast. This would be in addition to the almost 1,300 EV fast-charging stations we already have available at more than 280 U.S. facilities.​

​

With a store or club located within 10 miles of approximately 90% of Americans, we are uniquely positioned to deliver a convenient charging option that will help make EV ownership possible whether people live in rural, suburban or urban areas. Our goal is to meet the needs of customers and members where they live and open the road to those driving across the country. Easy access to on-the-go charging is a game-changer for drivers who have been hesitant to purchase an EV for concerns they won’t be able to find a charger in a clean, bright and safe location when needed.​

​

What’s more, with our chargers located on site with our Supercenters, Neighborhood Markets and Sam’s Clubs, we can offer customers and members the convenience of being able to pick up essentials for their families or grab a bite to eat while they charge. And in line with our purpose, we aim to offer Every Day Low Price charging – helping ease transportation costs, still the second highest household cost for much of our country.​

​

At the same time, as more drivers transition to EVs, our network growth will help expand domestic EV charging capacity across states. We see our commitment today as a natural extension of our work to help customers and members live better, easier and more sustainable lives – a big win for busy families and drivers everywhere, our country and the planet.​

​

This plan marks the latest investment in our efforts to transform our business and product supply chains to be more regenerative, in this case helping reduce emissions and increase efficiencies for customers. For example, we announced tests across our supply chain vehicle and fuel classes toward our goal of achieving zero emissions by 2040. And as of last year, many of our W+ customers have already been receiving their deliveries via electric vehicles.​

​

The way vehicle ownership looks is changing fast, and so is our business. Today, we are as known for convenience as we are for Every Day Low Price. We are committed to providing customers, members, associates, suppliers and our communities at large with the services they need and want, in a way that fits their lifestyle – making EV ownership easy and simple is no exception."​

 

[Joe schmoe]

That actually raises an interesting point. I see a bunch of lightnings on the road, but I have never seen one at an EA charger. But I see Rivians at EA all the time. Do lightning owners not know how to adventure?

I don't have a lot of EA chargng experience (1700 miles in "flyover country," all east of the Mississippi) but I've only seen one other Rivian charging in the wild--a launch green R1T in Greenville, AL.

I've seen at least one Lightning at most of the EA stations I've charged at. FWIW, at least a third of the owners I talked to had bought them used.

Not much of a sample, but I do think it's heavily dependent on where you are driving.

 

[s4wrxttcs]

It’s not that much money and NEVI funding is highly competitive, so there’s no assurance that Tesla would get money even if they open up the network

There are also rules that come with the NEVI funding.

Now I certainly don't understand all the rules as there is no NEVI funding for dummies that I can find, but it my understanding there are some payment rules like needing to be able to call in to pay.

 

[Autolycus]

This will certainly help Elon get more government money. He loves that.

No, it won't. At least not unless the regs are changed. They explicitly require CCS for the NEVI grants. Also, Tesla has already announced they'll be making a certain number of their chargers compatible with CCS vehicles. It'd be a TERRIBLE look that would burn a lot of bridges with DOT and the White House if they backed out of those commitments now.

 

[Autolycus]

Ford has struck a deal to have what customers see as a competitive advantage.

Would anyone be surprised if Ford paid Tesla a premium to have a unique privilege of this integration for a contracted for period of time?

I honestly think it's just as likely that Tesla is throwing some money Ford's way. All of the momentum was toward CCS and away from Tesla. This feels to me like Tesla threw a Hail Mary. Will it be caught? Time will tell.

 

[Autolycus]

It's a brilliant strategy from Tesla to disrupt the momentum and consolidation around CCS - they're doing this to fragment the competition, in a way that looks like pure upside to Ford. But it's a nightmare for consolidating on a charging standard in the US. Welcome to the next ten years of standards wars. Sigh.

This. All signs were pointing toward CCS winning the war and Tesla caving in to at least offering CCS at the vast majority of their superchargers and having the Tesla plug stay a proprietary thing that only Tesla and Aptera had. Now we have a massive uncertainty in the market that's going to set back the industry several years and quite possibly cause very real headaches for millions of EV owners who won't know what chargers they can use, what adapters they need, etc.

The only viable long-term solution to a split market is for nearly all stations to have both plugs available. As someone else said, there are far fewer chargers out there than vehicles. It makes no sense to have everyone carrying around an adapter when that means millions of adapters instead of thousands or tens of thousands built into the stations themselves.

 

[scottf200]

Meh.. I hope Rivian sticks with CCS. For all the hype on the SC network every time I go to the Fred Meyer in Sandy (today included) I see a Tesla using the EA station and open stalls on the SC.

On second thought this is good for Rivian owners. All those Mach E and Lightnings can use the SC and leave the CCS slots open for us

Way fewer Tesla stations than CCS vehicles.

If you see open stalls at the SC, why isn't this a good thing? It's by far the biggest and fastest expanding network. I wish Rivian offered a retrofit.

Below is from today and yesterday.
Crowdsources Tesla Supercharger changes/adds/updates --> supercharge.info

 

[scottf200]

I see it as a win for EVs as Ford customers will have zero range anxiety just like Tesla owners. Thus forward EV adoption. RANs are great but are too sparse. If RJ follows Ford, Rivian can stop RAN deployment, save millions, become profitable sooner and help R1T/R1S owners.

RANs are long term profit centers. No need to stop them

"Adventure" -- see purple below.

 

[azbill]

I would hope that would be possible but they could lock the communications to ford. The article does say activation is by Ford Pass and Ford Pro, that gives me pause as to think it will work.

Billing will be via Ford, just like plug and charge is on my Mach E. Ford pass allows activation and billing on other networks also. That is why they call it Blue Oval charging network.

 

[scottf200]

The other factor here will be seeing if the Superchargers retain their reliability when serving multiple brands. I have to imagine some of the issues EA faces is the different integrations but perhaps not.

I think your confusion is the charging hardware on EA is from a variety of manufacturers.

At the Tesla Superchargers, everything is made by Tesla so they control the quality and functionality of them (communication to them, upgradability, etc).

 

[SSteveEV]

I think your confusion is the charging hardware on EA is from a variety of manufacturers.

At the Tesla Superchargers, everything is made by Tesla so they control the quality and functionality of them (communication to them, upgradability, etc).

Good point, similar to Android vs Apple. Though I was thinking it's just harder to make something that works when you can't test it on every possible scenario.
Initially Superchargers just need to be tested with Tesla models (and now everything else). I'm sure what you are plugging in shouldn't make a big difference but it's just more iterations to run through when you have other soft and hardware you are plugging into.

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