Ford/Tesla Deal: Access to Superchargers, adapter coming, future EVs will have NACS (Tesla) port

[CharonPDX]

I've never had to wait for a CCS station but I haven't been in California with an EV.

I've had to wait exactly once - for all of one minute. I pulled into the only open stall at a 4-stall EA, but pulled into a stall that was broken. The person next to me let me know before I even plugged in, as they were unplugging and leaving. Funny part is, this was in my Mach-E, and all four stalls had Mach-Es in them at that moment. As I moved stalls, *ANOTHER* Mach-E pulled up.

That is the only time I've ever had "a wait" at a CCS station. I *HAVE* had to wait at a Tesla Supercharger, though.

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[Zoidz]

EA and Freewire are open to reconfiguring if NACS becomes the standard.

EA - “As the EV charging infrastructure landscape continues to evolve, we continue to monitor market demand and government policies. Electrify America is committed to being a part of the broader charging solution for EV drivers today and in the future.”

Freewire - “FreeWire has long been a proponent of standardization across the industry as it will make charging more convenient for drivers and allow infrastructure to keep pace with EV adoption nationwide. FreeWire plans to make NACS connectors available on Boost Chargers by mid 2024.”

 

[scottf200]

The problem with the Tesla superchargers is that they are all designed (except for one or two stalls at some sites) for back in charging with a driver side rear charge port. Will not work very well if large numbers of non Tesla start utilizing them heavily.

All chargers should IMO be pull through chargers. That setup is optimal for charging not only multiple brand EV but also for charging when you have a trailer attached. Gas stations figured this out decades ago.

The obvious problem with this is how much real estate the businesses have to give up.

I bet Ford puts the NACS plug in the drivers rear or the passengers front and I bet that is part of the contract. Otherwise it seems clear that it will create a LOT of havoc at Tesla Superchargers with wasted stalls and angry owners.

Just a footnote to think about here as well. Tesla had issues when they first started building out the network and over time seem to have it dialed in pretty well.

Let the other players catch up, first Tesla SC opened back in 2012. EA, currently the largest CCS network in the US did not open their first station until 2018.

Tesla is in their 12th year, EA in their 6th…

With what EA has done and shown so far it seems they have different overall priorities.
I think CCS plug owners can't be naive about what has played out for a few years with broken EA chargers and the length of time it takes to fix them when they fail.

Via veteran multi-decade industry author:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44016347/ford-tesla-ev-charging-opinion/

 

[Yossarian]

It sounds like we can all universally agree Rivian should pursue getting Tesla API integration/an NACS adapter and that would be a benefit for us all.
. . .

This would be of enormous benefit to EV owners, but there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for Tesla to allow it. In fact, now that Ford has tied up with them, there could be even less reason to do so.

It's not clear if this Ford-Tesla tie up is exclusive, but if I were Ford, I'd want some kind of clause to that effect in the contract, assuming it's legal. Given the superiority of the Tesla charging network, an exclusive arrangement with Ford would make an effective duopoly in the EV charging space. That in turn could reduce EV sales for those manufacturers whose vehicles are only able to use the other often poorly performing charging networks. Even if it's not exclusive, Tesla will likely demand substantial licensing/royalty fees from other makers as the price of entry.

One way to counter that is obviously for other networks like EA and EVGo to raise their game, but that's not a particularly attractive option for them at this juncture. It's costly and it's possible that they will have fewer customers going forward due to the new Tesla-Ford arrangement. It may make more sense for them to take a wait and see approach until the effects of the partnership on vehicle sales are more clear.

This is kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don't thing. There is not a great argument for EA or any other company in that space to rushing to spend the money to upgrade to compete against the Tesla network at this point. If they don't do it now however, it just makes what is already a competitive advantage even more so.

 

[docwhiz]

This would be of enormous benefit to EV owners, but there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason for Tesla to allow it. In fact, now that Ford has tied up with them, there could be even less reason to do so.

It's not clear if this Ford-Tesla tie up is exclusive, but if I were Ford, I'd want some kind of clause to that effect in the contract, assuming it's legal. Given the superiority of the Tesla charging network, an exclusive arrangement with Ford would make an effective duopoly in the EV charging space. That in turn could reduce EV sales for those manufacturers whose vehicles are only able to use the other often poorly performing charging networks. Even if it's not exclusive, Tesla will likely demand substantial licensing/royalty fees from other makers as the price of entry.

One way to counter that is obviously for other networks like EA and EVGo to raise their game, but that's not a particularly attractive option for them at this juncture. It's costly and it's possible that they will have fewer customers going forward due to the new Tesla-Ford arrangement. It may make more sense for them to take a wait and see approach until the effects of the partnership on vehicle sales are more clear.

This is kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don't thing. There is not a great argument for EA or any other company in that space to rushing to spend the money to upgrade to compete against the Tesla network at this point. If they don't do it now however, it just makes what is already a competitive advantage even more so.

Tesla has repeatedly stated that they will open SC to all cars. It's a good thing.

 

[emoore]

Tesla has repeatedly stated that they will open SC to all cars. It's a good thing.

I wish it was all SCs that they are going to open. They said some so I believe it’s going to be the minimum possible.

 

[DuoRivians]

1. Today, Tesla should sell the magic dock adapter to people and allow people to charge via Tesla app

then,

2. Work with oems to allow them to access Tesla supercharger APIs, so that oems can integrate supercharger billings through their own oem apps.

This should be universal, regardless of oem brand. If Tesla isn’t doing this, there is something suspicious, which questions Tesla’s motives.

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

I doubt it's an exclusive agreement. Ford is going to use the NACS and I agree with other posters here that charge ports me be relocated. It's a huge selling point for Ford and gives them a leg up on non-tesla competition. At least until the majority of SC have magic dock....but....this may be a smarter way for Tesla to make sure the SC experience isn't ruined for existing Tesla owners. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a lack of expansion for magic dock. Hard to say really what will happen.

 

[Yossarian]

Tesla has repeatedly stated that they will open SC to all cars. It's a good thing.

I'm sure that's correct and couldn't agree more that opening the SuperCharger to network to all is a good thing. I suspect however that it's further down on the Tesla "to-do" list, behind at least Full Self-Driving, and the Cybertruck . . .

 

[scottf200]

I wish it was all SCs that they are going to open. They said some so I believe it’s going to be the minimum possible.

With the Ford deal it is V3+ Superchargers. supercharge.info lets you filter on >= 250 kW

Re: v3 requirement - Branden Flasch has an excellent video that talks about how advanced the Tesla Superchargers are to share 500 kW *between* power cabinets. ala make sure Fords & Tesla shave best experience (not degrade Tesla customer's experience).

 

[Electrified Outdoors]

With the Ford deal it is V3+ Superchargers. supercharge.info lets you filter on >= 250 kW

Re: v3 requirement - Branden Flasch has an excellent video that talks about how advanced the Tesla Superchargers are to share 500 kW *between* power cabinets. ala make sure Fords & Tesla shave best experience (not degrade Tesla customer's experience).

Don't forget about V4. V3 were a huge improvement over v2 for the exact reason you highlighted. Each cabinet at a V3 SC can supply up to 1 MW of power so you can in theory have 4 vehicles charging off one cabinet pulling 250kw each. So you see 4 stalls on one cabinet with V3. Now in practice it doesn't always happen that way.

The SC output is dependent on the grid input among other things. Of course sites can also have limits at certain times as well. It has a large battery and grid input is limited to 350kw. Tesla really does well in maintaining their sites though...at least better than the 3rd party networks (my experience).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger

 

[Autolycus]

For those saying this might mean Tesla slows down the Magic Dock, I'll just remind everyone that It was only 3 months ago that Tesla, and Elon, promised to make at least 7,500 supercharger and destination chargers available to non-Tesla EVs by the end of 2024. They even made promises about that to the White House.

Yes, it's true that all of the statements from the WH and made to the press say "available to non-Tesla EVs", which could technically now just mean Ford, but that would be a TERRIBLE look for Tesla that could significantly damage their ability to get federal funds in the future.

 

[DuoRivians]

1. Today, Tesla should sell the magic dock adapter to people and allow people to charge via Tesla app

then,

2. Work with oems to allow them to access Tesla supercharger APIs, so that oems can integrate supercharger billings through their own oem apps.

This should be universal, regardless of oem brand. If Tesla isn’t doing this, there is something suspicious, which questions Tesla’s motives.

@scottf200 do you disagree?

 

[Zorg]

Funny how folks are assuming all kind of stipulations about the agreement when no one knows anything about the details. For all we know, Tesla is simply using it to increase the usage rate of their SC and make them more profitable. Fact is that we don't know anything about the agreement terms at this point.

 

[Joe schmoe]

I think most of the reported issues are exaggerated for the purpose of fear-mongering. There are many people on this forum telling people that the EA stations are way more reliable than being reported but since it goes against the EA sucks mantra that message is discounted.

I have had a couple of sessions that were degraded but overall my EA experience has been positive. That includes a 5100 mile trip around the country that had 33 charging stops and no issues.

I don't think the problems are exaggerated based on my (fairly limited) experience. I've owned a Tesla for 8 years, and never, not once,have I had to wait for a supercharger or had one not work.

I've owned a Rivian for 10 weeks, and in about 1700 miles of highway driving have found 40% of EA sites fully functional. Most have chargers (especially the 350kw) broken, and some whole sites are severely throttled.

As I type this, the Memphis EA station (the next closest one is 65 miles away) has been down completely for 4 days, on a busy holiday weekend. There are a handful for 50ish kw chargers around, but I suspect people are stranded today.

I don't doubt that things are different on the coasts, with waits for superchargers and plentiful fast CCS, but in "flyover country" CCS just isn't yet a reliable way to travel. Tesla has had this solved for years, pretty much everywhere.

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