Ford/Tesla Deal: Access to Superchargers, adapter coming, future EVs will have NACS (Tesla) port

[DuoRivians]

Thanks for your input. I agree in underutilized locations *today* having more car charge is a good thing. There are some that are full regularly and fortunately, Tesla tracks that and adds more if they can find suitable spaces. I saw problems in Naples, FL as one example this summer. Equipment, electricity, and ongoing lease cost. Wonder how much leases cost? Electricity often comes with demand charges if overutilized. Some of these numbers I've read are off the chart.

It is unclear the cost for each increment of 4 pedestals + charging cabinet. You can see on supercharge.info/changes they are installing 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, etc ones in places they can get the lease space.

Your 50 kWh may be a little high for road trippers. An example from some of my March travels.

At the end of the day, after trying to suss out any meaning from your arguments, I think all you seem to care about is making sure your precious Superchargers are always available for Teslas, and not having to wait.

You don’t really seem to care about the business model and profitability. It’s all about preserving this walled garden of Superchargers, unless someone pays a huge amount that you think someone like Ford did, ie “you’re not worthy of using my Superchargers unless you pay me a lot first.”

(Not) sorry to say, but this scenario will just be a fantasy.

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[Electrified Outdoors]

Opening it up with an adapter makes the most sense to me financially. Make some money on selling them, and then charge enough to make money on the electrons. Retrofitting them with magic docks has never made much sense to me.

I like that thought process better than installing these magic dock adapters at all the sites. It would save Tesla having to invest that money and would also allow folks that really need to use them to do so at any SC right away.

Even though it's more expensive and requires more real estate I still think eventually, at least a long well travelled routes, you have to have pull through charging so as to make efficient use of the chargers.

Yes Tesla owners might be upset but if you have them oriented in a way that only 4 out of 8 chargers are in use them that means you have four chargers sitting idle and not producing a return. That's a lose/lose situation.

 

[scottf200]

Based on the applications Tesla submitted for the Texas rebates it cost them about 43k to install a supercharger unit.

In addition to my other comments about not knowing other factors in this price (from a electrek.co article), I'm not convinced a number in TX isn't subsidized in some way by Tesla.
* After all you cannot buy a Tesla in TX due to their dealership/franchise laws AFAIK. Is there a Tesla motivation to install as many Supercharger sites there as possible?
* Is Telsa motivated to sell a lot of CyberTrucks? "Texas has highest volume of truck sales" Will more Superchargers help them do that?
* As well, Tesla was highly incentivized to put a Gigafactory there. Hard to say how the backroom deals are working there.
* It is unclear how Tesla became a Retail Electricity Provider in Texas. The Public Utility Commission of Texas (PUCT) approved their application. Hard to say how the backroom deals are working there.

Ford's motivation for having the most robust charging network.
Will other brands make inroads with way less charging options?

 

[Joe schmoe]

Thanks for your input. I agree in underutilized locations *today* having more car charge is a good thing.

Keep in mind for some vehicles the charge port does not allow them to utilize a Supercharger stall as intended for Teslas with the left rear plug. That means some non-Teslas will use 2 stalls essentially. Picture below of a Rivian example.

There are some that are full regularly and fortunately, Tesla tracks that and adds more if they can find suitable spaces. I saw problems in Naples, FL as one example this summer. Equipment, electricity, and ongoing lease cost. Wonder how much leases cost? Electricity often comes with demand charges if overutilized. Some of these numbers I've read are off the chart.

It is unclear the cost for each increment of 4 pedestals + charging cabinet. You can see on supercharge.info/changes they are installing 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, etc ones in places they can get the lease space.

Your 50 kWh may be a little high for road trippers. An example from some of my March travels.

In my (lamentably, unsolicited) opinion the best way for Tesla to roll out supercharger access for non Tesla vehicles is to identify "underutilized" stations where there isn't sufficient CCS support already.

There are lots of rural SC stations that are rarely full, but necessary to support travel for Teslas. An example I'm personally familiar with is the I-22 corridor between Memphis and Birmingham, AL where there is a 258 mile gap with no CCS DCFC available, but three well spaced SC stations on the route.

I've charged a Tesla more than once in Tupelo, MS and only once saw a single other Tesla charging. Same with Defuniak Springs, FL, Oshkosh, WI, Ft Walton Springs, FL, etc. There are obviously many others but those just happen to be some I'm familiar with.

Adding the Magic Docks in those locations would immediately open up those routes for CCS cars, generating revenue from day one, without displacing any current Tesla customers. The advantage (for Tesla) of the Magic Dock is that they get to control where non Tesla (+/- Ford) CCS cars can charge to prevent more congestion where it's already a problem (like Southern California).

For the most part, the areas with congested superchargers already have plenty of CCS options as well. In much of rural America, Tesla has a robust infrastructure that is currently underutilized, but CCS stations are too far apart and too unreliable to be a serious option.

 

[Spork8]

In addition to my other comments about not knowing other factors in this price (from a electrek.co article), I'm not convinced a number in TX isn't subsidized in some way by Tesla.
* After all you cannot buy a Tesla in TX due to their dealership/franchise laws AFAIK. Is there a Tesla motivation to install as many Supercharger sites there as possible?
* Is Telsa motivated to sell a lot of CyberTrucks? "Texas has highest volume of truck sales" Will more Superchargers help them do that?
* As well, Tesla was highly incentivized to put a Gigafactory there. Hard to say how the backroom deals are working there.
* It is unclear how Tesla became a Retail Electricity Provider in Texas. The Public Utility Commission of Texas (PUCT) approved their application. Hard to say how the backroom deals are working there.

Ford's motivation for having the most robust charging network.
Will other brands make inroads with way less charging options?

From reading some of your responses in here, it appears that you are well inexperienced with capital accounting amongst other things. There is a lot more that goes into installing a charging station than the initial cost.

Tesla is here to make money and it has been well pointed out by several others already. Any subsidies or "back room deals" that you allude to Tesla having with the public would require it to be disclosed. Is Tesla incentivized to build charging stations in any state? Yes, Tesla's are likely to drive there as they are permitted to just like any other car. I live in Michigan which is also staunchly anti direct sales like Texas, but people are free to own a Tesla here and since it is a big state they need to charge every now and then so having chargers makes monetary sense for Tesla. Is Tesla incentivized to build a factory in Texas despite not being allowed to sell directly to consumers in Texas? Yes, Texas has a low tax rate that is advantageous plus it is close to Mexico where a lot of automotive components are made.

The F-150 is the most popular vehicle because their base trim, the work truck, is cheap. These trucks get beat up and purchased nearly every other year, because they're cheap. The Lightning is not going to be a work truck replacement. Ford is not partnered with anyone in building out a charger network like some other OEMs. This isn't going to stop them from trying to leverage whatever they can in order to get into this market. Hell, just look at the gen 1 Mach-E. It was built primarily with pre-existing components that were available to them instead of building from the ground up - they were rushing. Ford is good with their manufacturing process so the next gen versions should be more robust.

Now back to the whole CCS/NACS debacle...
NACS is not a standard. It is 100% Tesla IP and a known electrical safety risk that Tesla has mitigated by installing additional hardware in their vehicles meaning the "standard" is flawed. Elon has promised opening up the charging network several times over the years since it will do nothing but generate more money for Tesla and it sounds like Tesla has finally figured out how to achieve this with the "magic dock", but they haven't taken the next step yet. I would like to believe they would sell the connector, but they are still more likely to install the "magic dock" in order to keep their "standard" proprietary as they value their IP more.

 

[MountainRatMatt]

NACS is not a standard. It is 100% Tesla IP and a known electrical safety risk that Tesla has mitigated by installing additional hardware in their vehicles meaning the "standard" is flawed.

Can you please explain this safety risk in a bit more detail. I have never heard of it before and would like to know more about it.

 

[Spork8]

Can you please explain this safety risk in a bit more detail. I have never heard of it before and would like to know more about it.

It's detailed multiple times in this thread. Tesla has AC/DC on the same pins.

 

[MountainRatMatt]

In addition to my other comments about not knowing other factors in this price (from a electrek.co article), I'm not convinced a number in TX isn't subsidized in some way by Tesla.
* After all you cannot buy a Tesla in TX due to their dealership/franchise laws AFAIK. Is there a Tesla motivation to install as many Supercharger sites there as possible?
* Is Telsa motivated to sell a lot of CyberTrucks? "Texas has highest volume of truck sales" Will more Superchargers help them do that?
* As well, Tesla was highly incentivized to put a Gigafactory there. Hard to say how the backroom deals are working there.
* It is unclear how Tesla became a Retail Electricity Provider in Texas. The Public Utility Commission of Texas (PUCT) approved their application. Hard to say how the backroom deals are working there.

Ford's motivation for having the most robust charging network.
Will other brands make inroads with way less charging options?

Where are you getting this data? I can guarantee you the BMW 3 series is not the most popular car in California...and nobody buys Altimas, not even in Nevada.

Sorry but this map is comple garbage.

 

[MountainRatMatt]

It's detailed multiple times in this thread. Tesla has AC/DC on the same pins.

What is wrong with having AC and DC on the same pins?

The current doesn't flow until the handshake from plug to car is made.

 

[Spork8]

What is wrong with having AC and DC on the same pins?

The current doesn't flow until the handshake from plug to car is made.

That isn't how electricity works.

Try plugging your phone into a wall socket by cutting the USB/Whatever-Apple-Uses cord and plugging the pos/neg wires into the outlet. Current won't flow into your phone's battery until a handshake is made, right? Seriously though, do not do this as it will cause a fire and/or explosion.

 

[scottf200]

Sorry but this map is comple garbage.

Do this google search and then click on the 'images' tab for a variety of sources over the years. The F-series is the top.
https://www.google.com/search?q=most+popular+car+by+state

The visual capital one is pretty good as it shows the top 3 in each state.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-best-selling-vehicles-in-america-by-state/

 

[MountainRatMatt]

That isn't how electricity works.

Try plugging your phone into a wall socket by cutting the USB/Whatever-Apple-Uses cord and plugging the pos/neg wires into the outlet. Current won't flow into your phone's battery until a handshake is made, right? Seriously though, do not do this as it will cause a fire and/or explosion.

That is comparing apples and oranges.

Even Rivians RAN chargers require a handshake before current will flow.

Phone charging does not require a handshake.

If you probe a phone charger there is a voltage on the pins at all times. If you probe a vehicle charger (CCS, RAN, Tesla, J1772) there is no voltage on the the power pins until the handshake is made.

 

[MountainRatMatt]

Do this google search and then click on the 'images' tab for a variety of sources over the years. The F-series is the top.
https://www.google.com/search?q=most+popular+car+by+state

The visual capital one is pretty good as it shows the top 3 in each state.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-best-selling-vehicles-in-america-by-state/

Doing that search looks like the Civic is top in California not the BMW 3 series. That is much more believable.

 

[DuoRivians]

What is wrong with having AC and DC on the same pins?

The current doesn't flow until the handshake from plug to car is made.

It requires extra control board hardware on the vehicle side (eg in Tesla cars) to prevent bad things from sharing pins. With CCS, because the pins are separate, there isn’t a need for this extra control board.

NACS to CCS adapter is actually quite straightforward. They actually use same communications protocols on DCFCs.

https://www.amp.tech/tesla-nacs/

 

[scottf200]

What is wrong with having AC and DC on the same pins?
The current doesn't flow until the handshake from plug to car is made.

100%. On my current Tesla charging system I have half AC home and half DC road trip charging:
AC charging: 19,910 kWh
DC charging: 19,273 kWh

Imagine what it is across all the millions of Tesla cars sold.

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