GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[scottf200]

... Meanwhile, you cannot even buy "NACS" ... charge handles are 'soon'. Celebrating this as a win for consumers is naive.

It appears that EVgo can get NACS cables with handles per below:

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[rhuber]

It appears that EVgo can get NACS cables with handles per below:

They added Tesla CHAdeMO handles, hidden in metal boxes, to their chargers. They are limited to 50kw.

edit: source https://www.evgo.com/tesla/

 

[Longreach]

I see both sides of this debate, but there's a really simple, undeniable fact - from a public standards viewpoint, NACS currently is a standard in name only. Telsa owns it, Tesla manages it, and can make any changes at any time without approval from anyone.

Until the standard is signed over to a true standards organization, it's a standard in name only. When it is signed over, it *could* be only a physical standard, or it could include voltage specs, communication specs, etc. Hopefully the latter. Until then, this is all speculation and subject to Elon's whims.

ELon backed of out the Twitter commitment at one point - anyone think he is above shenanigans with NACS?

The IP is already on the table and there is now overwhelming will to make it happen. The commercial agreements are depending on standardization and Wall St applauds it. No one, including EM, has any reason to block it. Yes, the functionaries must complete their procedural work, but it really is, for all intents and purposes, a done deal.

 

[2025R1S]

The reason EVGo is making these announcements is because of their stock price.

ChargePoint and EVGo stock is down 12%.

EVGo and GM have a big contract together - so that’s probably more complicated now.

EVGo has slow NACS chargers - not even 150kW. EA, ChargePoint, and Evgo are going to have to focus more on NACS, if they want to remain relevant.

It’s going to be adapter hell for everyone for at least 2-3 years. Come 2026 - all these adapters are going to be worthless. If we’re lucky, everything will be NACS by then.

 

[SASSquatch]

CCS lobby? Do you mean German dieselgate lawyers?

CCS is the global standard for charging. The US Government also thinks so and is planning to invest billions in a CCS network across the US. Hundreds of thousands of chargers.

 

[SASSquatch]

This entire partnership with GM and Ford is going to end up being a complete calamity and end up setting back the entire movement IMHO.

1.) Ford and GM decided that they need to conserve cash and instead of building out their own network or contributing to the buildout of a CCS network through a consortium will abdicate their responsibility by paying Tesla a fraction of what they were planning to spend. The GM CEO came out and said that GM is saving $400M of the $750M they had set aside to build a network. Translation: they are paying Musk $350M to get access to Tesla chargers. Pay to Play.

2.) Tesla just screwed all of their existing customers because the 12,000 Tesla Super Chargers that will be available to Ford and GM vehicles in 2024 are NOT DESIGNED for non-Tesla vehicles. The cable is too short and you have to block a second charging stall in most cases. This has been documented by many reviewers. This is going to cause absolute chaos and it is not easily fixable.

3.) Non-Tesla vehicles will only be able to efficiently use superchargers that are designed for multiple brands. That means, that Tesla needs to build and install these chargers which means they are actually behind the curb because CCS chargers already have cables long enough for any EV to charge.

4.) New technologies, like in the fantastic Kia EV6 that offer 800 volt architecture get absolutely miserable charging rates at Tesla SuperChargers which are all 400 volt and can't be easily changed/upgraded. A reviewer using a Magic Dock Telsa Super Charger was getting 42KwH on his EV6 walked across the street to Electrify America and got 242KwH.

5.) The US government has set aside 7.5 Billion to create a nationwide charging network of hundreds of thousands of CCS chargers. Why CCS - because that is the global standard. Ford and GM sold out to Tesla for a measly 12,000 chargers when literally hundreds of thousands of CCS chargers are going to come on line in the next decade.

6.) Tesla just shot themselves in the foot. The reason a lot of Tesla buyers choose Tesla is for the network. The vehicle with continued QC and build issues is absolutely behind most OEMs. Tesla has now disincentivized future owners from buying a Tesla because the network isnt exclusive.

7.) If I were Rivian, I would be calling up every remaining OEM with skin in the game and trying to create a consortium to remain in CCS and pledging to work on creating an open network to all EVs including Teslas with an adapter.

 

[DuoRivians]

 

[SASSquatch]

Exactly. They must have a CCS connection. That is where magic dock comes into play.

The problem is the cable is too short on existing chargers for non-Tesla brands.

Either Tesla will have to replace the existing cables on all of their chargers, or build new ones to accommodate charging ports that are literally all over the place.

 

[MP3Mike]

5.) The US government has set aside 7.5 Billion to create a nationwide charging network of hundreds of thousands of CCS chargers. Why CCS - because that is the global standard. Ford and GM sold out to Tesla for a measly 12,000 chargers when literally hundreds of thousands of CCS chargers are going to come on line in the next decade.

I created an account just to counter this false information. There is only ~$3.5B of NEVI funding for CCS charger installation. The remaing BIL funding is mainly targeted at L2 charger installations.

And no, $3.5B isn't going to get you "hundreds of thousands of CCS chargers". Not even a hundred thousand. In Oregon the NEVI administrators are expecting each stall to cost more than $200k, and they appear to be keeping ~$20k/stall for state overhead. So, all the years of NEVI funding is only going to add ~16,000 CCS chargers nationwide. (Oregon is expecting the first year funds, ~$8M, to be spent on installing only 44 CCS chargers at 11 locations.)

And given announcements already from AmpUp, EVpassport, FreeWire, FLO, EVgo, and ABB about supporting NACS, I am expecting a lot of the NEVI funded chargers will have a paired NACS connector.

tl;dr: The government said the ~$7.5B would be used for ~500k chargers; of that less than 20k of them will be DC fast chargers, almost all of them will be L2 chargers.

While Tesla currently has ~13k chargers that GM/Ford will get access to, they have said that the network will double by the end of next year. (And that doesn't count the NEVI funded chargers that will have NACS.)

 

[SASSquatch]

I created an account just to counter this false information. There is only ~$3.5B of NEVI funding for CCS charger installation. The other $4B is mainly targeted at L2 charger installations.

And no, $3.5B isn't going to get you "hundreds of thousands of CCS chargers". Not even a hundred thousand. In Oregon the NEVI administrators are expecting each stall to cost more than $200k, and they appear to be keeping ~$20k/stall for state overhead. So, all the years of NEVI funding is only going to add ~16,000 CCS chargers nationwide. (Oregon is expecting the first year funds, ~$8M, to be spent on installing only 44 CCS chargers at 11 locations.)

And given announcements already from AmpUp, EVpassport, FreeWire, FLO, EVgo, and ABB about supporting NACS, I am expecting a lot of the NEVI funded chargers will have a paired NACS connector.

tl;dr: The government said the ~$7.5B would be used for ~500k chargers; of that less than 20k of them will be DC fast chargers, almost all of them will be L2 chargers.

While Tesla currently has ~13k chargers that GM/Ford will get access to, they have said that the network will double by the end of next year. (And that doesn't count the NEVI funded chargers that will have NACS.)

I'm sorry. Read the announcement carefully:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/15/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-new-standards-and-major-progress-for-a-made-in-america-national-network-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/#:~:text=The $70 million, 150,000 square,and 700 jobs by 2030.

Funding is going to accelerate the buildout of hundreds of thousands of DC fast chargers over the next decade. Do the math on the individual manufacturers that the White House calls out.

Even if you argue the numbers - my points all still stand.

 

[MP3Mike]

While that's all speculation, it's clear that Rivian needs to do something to deal with the challenge that Ford and GM have laid down.

I agree, but a big issue that I haven't seen anyone bring up here: Tesla is currently in the process of suing Rivian for, alleged, IP theft. I somehow doubt that Tesla is going to be open to an agreement with Rivian until that case is settled.

 

[2025R1S]

There is no global charging standard. China has their own plug. Europe has their own unique CCS plug that is not the same as CCS1 that is found in USA.

Even in the market CCS1 is supposed to be the standard in, the plug doesn’t dominant. Far more 250kW Superchargers than 250kW+ CCS chargers. Far more NACS cars than CCS cars.

CCS1 is everything but a standard, really

CCS is the global standard for charging. The US Government also thinks so and is planning to invest billions in a CCS network across the US. Hundreds of thousands of chargers.

 

[SASSquatch]

There is no global charging standard. China has their own plug. Europe has their own unique CCS plug that is not the same as CCS1 that is found in USA.

Even in the market CCS1 is supposed to be the standard in, the plug doesn’t dominant. Far more 250kW Superchargers than 250kW+ CCS chargers. Far more NACS cars than CCS cars.

CCS1 is everything but a standard, really

Nope.

CCS is the global standard and therefore focuses on international interoperability and, unlike NACS, is future proofed to support many other use cases beyond public DC fast charging. Early, unconsolidated announcements of changes create uncertainty in the industry and lead to investment obstacles.

https://electrek.co/2023/06/05/tesl...bal standard,and lead to investment obstacles.

 

[2025R1S]

Respectfully disagree. Try and take your CCS1 car to Europe or China.

Nope.

CCS is the global standard and therefore focuses on international interoperability and, unlike NACS, is future proofed to support many other use cases beyond public DC fast charging. Early, unconsolidated announcements of changes create uncertainty in the industry and lead to investment obstacles.

https://electrek.co/2023/06/05/tesla-ford-partnership-charging-standard-angers-ccs-coalition/#:~:text=CCS is the global standard,and lead to investment obstacles.

 

[MP3Mike]

I'm sorry. Read the announcement carefully:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/02/15/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-announces-new-standards-and-major-progress-for-a-made-in-america-national-network-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/#:~:text=The $70 million, 150,000 square,and 700 jobs by 2030.

Funding is going to accelerate the buildout of hundreds of thousands of DC fast chargers over the next decade. Do the math on the individual manufacturers that the White House calls out.

Even if you argue the numbers - my points all still stand.

All that points out is that DC fast charger manufacturers are greatly overbuilding capacity. Each one of them is building enough capacity to produce all of the CCS chargers for all 5 years of the NEVI funding every year. That isn't going to end well for them. (Maybe they mis-read the announcements to be 500k CCS chargers like you did, when it is going to be closer to 20k.)

Someone else has pointed out the same thing:



Maybe that will drive down the cost of the CCS chargers so that a few more can be installed. But more likely it will put some of them out of business.

Do you really think hundreds of thousands of DC fast chargers are necessary? Tesla has things fairly well covered with ~24k. A hundred thousand should be more than enough.

But we do need a lot more L2 EVSEs, which the BIL funding is going to help provide at apartment complexes, business centers, shopping malls, etc.

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