GM adopts Tesla's NACS standard! Munro begs Rivian to switch

[COdogman]

There is no global charging standard. China has their own plug. Europe has their own unique CCS plug that is not the same as CCS1 that is found in USA.

Even in the market CCS1 is supposed to be the standard in, the plug doesn’t dominant. Far more 250kW Superchargers than 250kW+ CCS chargers. Far more NACS cars than CCS cars.

CCS1 is everything but a standard, really

By definition the Tesla plug is also not a “standard”. A standard in this case would have to be agreed upon by multiple groups and manufacturers (which literally just changed in the past week) PLUS be controlled by an independent body - not a single manufacturer.

It doesn’t matter that Tesla keeps calling their plug a “North American standard”. That’s pure marketing BS.

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[Electric Rivilution]

Munro begs Rivian to switch to Tesla NACS

 

[Tatnai]

CCS in North America is now Betamax.

This is true. And quite the underrated comment.

 

[Jarico75]

Patents allow companies to protect against others to claim their inventions. Patents do not permit monopolistic behavior

Yes, but laws do.

 

[Zoidz]

By definition the Tesla plug is also not a “standard”. A standard in this case would have to be agreed upon by multiple groups and manufacturers (which literally just changed in the past week) PLUS be controlled by an independent body - not a single manufacturer.

It doesn’t matter that Tesla keeps calling their plug a “North American standard”. That’s pure marketing BS.

I'm going to offer my ZEUS (Zoid's Electrical Universal Standard) charging port to the EV manufacturers. It's a standard - because I said so! Here's the connector.

Seriously, people can say/believe/dream it's a standard because it's on millions of Teslas, but it simply is not a standard until it is managed by an independent organization.

 

[SASSquatch]

All that points out is that DC fast charger manufacturers are greatly overbuilding capacity. Each one of them is building enough capacity to produce all of the CCS chargers for all 5 years of the NEVI funding every year. That isn't going to end well for them. (Maybe they mis-read the announcements to be 500k CCS chargers like you did, when it is going to be closer to 20k.)

Someone else has pointed out the same thing:



Maybe that will drive down the cost of the CCS chargers so that a few more can be installed. But more likely it will put some of them out of business.

Do you really think hundreds of thousands of DC fast chargers are necessary? Tesla has things fairly well covered with ~24k. A hundred thousand should be more than enough.

But we do need a lot more L2 EVSEs, which the BIL funding is going to help provide at apartment complexes, business centers, shopping malls, etc.

Again, you can argue the numbers all you want, but my core points still stand.

If we are going to massively increase EV adoption, we need a ubiquitous and reliable EV charging network.

In order to meet that demand, we need at a minimum, tens of thousands - but most liley closer to hundreds of thousands because of the time it takes for you to charge your vehicle, vs. a pitstop for gas.

There are ~150K gas stations in the US. We will need at least that many chargers and likely more.

 

[crashmtb]

By definition the Tesla plug is also not a “standard”. A standard in this case would have to be agreed upon by multiple groups and manufacturers (which literally just changed in the past week) PLUS be controlled by an independent body - not a single manufacturer.

It doesn’t matter that Tesla keeps calling their plug a “North American standard”. That’s pure marketing BS.

There’s an XKCD comic for this

 

[HaveBlue]

Consumers just want to pull up to a station, plug in and charge reliably at the best cost. The market drives that decision and manufacturers other than Tesla haven't paid attention.

 

[SASSquatch]

And here is another point for everyone to ponder.

One of the advantages of the Telsa network is ease and reliability. You get that when you have a walled garden. Think Apple vs Android.

Android users live in a wild wild west of user experiences. Apple users have, generally, a much more coherent user experience because Apple controls nearly every aspect.

The moment you open up the Tesla network to different brands, that walled garden goes away. Part of the headache for CCS is needing to accommodate different architectures and software.

That problem doesn't go away by opening up the Tesla Super chargers - it only makes it much much worse. Ford isn't adopting Teslas software. Neither is GM as far as I have read. Just the port.

My prediction is this will end up causing the kinds of headaches CCS companies have been dealing with since the beginning and the user experience will not get better.

 

[DTown3011]

Munro begs Rivian to switch to Tesla NACS

This is the most cocky and emotional I've seen Sandy ever....entertaining watch!

 

[AngryOxidant]

I'm hoping Rivian's pride doesn't get in the way of what is obviously a good deal for customers. If they look at the Tesla network vs. Ran the way they look at their user experience vs. offering car play/android auto then we won't see Tesla Supercharger support.

 

[Ventura]

Again, you can argue the numbers all you want, but my core points still stand.

If we are going to massively increase EV adoption, we need a ubiquitous and reliable EV charging network.

In order to meet that demand, we need at a minimum, tens of thousands - but most liley closer to hundreds of thousands because of the time it takes for you to charge your vehicle, vs. a pitstop for gas.

There are ~150K gas stations in the US. We will need at least that many chargers and likely more.

It seems likely that we won't need that many, but that the locations of chargers will be different than the locations of gas stations. Do we need to replicate my neighborhood stations. Likely not. I charged once in my community, but only to learn how to use a charger. That will not be true for some, but will likely be true for most, at least initially.
We'll need more chargers on travel routes.

 

[solaskaze]

I probably have a different perspective from many here, because my Rivian will be my first EV, and I have rented a Tesla from Hertz exactly one time - last week - in Atlanta. So here's a few random, perhaps disjoint observations from an EV noob:

- It's the Wild West of the 1800s and it's impossible to predict where this is going to go.

- We can guess but nobody really knows WHY Elon is doing this - altruism to the industry, greed expecting future revenue, or ego ("Hey Ford, GM, everyone, I've got the biggest ................. charging network.")

- EV growth is going to continue to outstrip Tesla's charging capacity, and they will not be able to expand quickly enough to keep up. Properly run, the other charging networks can compete.

- There are tons of areas that don't have Tesla Superchargers. In my area, in a 20 mile radius, there are TWO Tesla SuperCharger stations (8 plugs each) vs TWENTY FIVE non-Tesla Stations.

- Tesla owners are going to be pissed when this kicks in. From my VERY limited experience in Atlanta, the two Superchargers I went to were 70-80% occupied. What's going to happen when the flood gate of Ford and GM open?

- I have not seen any discussion regarding pricing as a method of managing who uses what chargers. Does Tesla implement "surge pricing" for non-Tesla users at peak usage times, etc. to give preference to Tesla owners? I think pricing is going to be a big factor in this battle, especially if non-Tesla networks can offer lower rates.

- I expect this to have minimal impact on me. My EV use case has me charging at my primary or vacation homes 99% of the time.

OK, forget CCS vs NACS -- if you have multiple vacation homes, can I have one?

 

[Jdrexler]

If adopted by Rivian, is speculation that this might be something that could be retrofit on previously delivered vehicles?

 

[MP3Mike]

There are ~150K gas stations in the US. We will need at least that many chargers and likely more.

No, we don't. As DC fast chargers are not the only way to "fuel-up" an EV.

What we need is hundreds of thousands of L2 EVSEs. And amazingly most EVs come with one. (Tesla being an exception.) And the BIL funding is planning to put in ~450k L2 EVSEs where people need them most: Apartments, businesses, shopping malls, parks, etc. And lots of states/utilities have incentives for people to install a L2 EVSE at home.

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