Breaking: White House releases plan to build nationwide network of 500,000 EV chargers

[the long way downunder]

As for "standards" there's also too many software standards – one consumer plugs in a Porsche and gets the Porsche price, another plugs in a Ford, and all the other EV marques – some sites will charge by the hour (absolutely absurd, but those states treat EV charging bays like parking spots) other sites charge by the kWh, some will be $0.10/kWh and some will be $1.00/kWh (or worse if time charges or idle fees are applied.)
If the USA were a democracy, I think the people would vote for one price and a subsidy for low-income, farmers, teachers, fire-fighters, nurses and other essential roles. I don't like the prospect of a charging grid where I can be paying $0.25/kWh and the sucker beside me is paying $0.75/kWh for no good reason, just a biased system that will favor one consumer over another.

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[the long way downunder]

I know the U.S. Govt protects its spending, but the other place to get a lot of wasted spending and focus it on domestic purposes is the military – take some of the money earmarked for buying needless multiples of the same weapons already stockpiled in multiples of every other country in the world combined, and instead spend it on training people in technology and construction jobs to build the infrastructure (and fix a few clean water systems, sewers, levy banks, bridges and train lines along the way.) A great way to get electricity grids spreading across a nation is to use the existing railway networks.

 

[thrill]

As for "standards" there's also too many software standards – one consumer plugs in a Porsche and gets the Porsche price, another plugs in a Ford, and all the other EV marques – some sites will charge by the hour (absolutely absurd, but those states treat EV charging bays like parking spots) other sites charge by the kWh, some will be $0.10/kWh and some will be $1.00/kWh (or worse if time charges or idle fees are applied.)
If the USA were a democracy, I think the people would vote for one price and a subsidy for low-income, farmers, teachers, fire-fighters, nurses and other essential roles. I don't like the prospect of a charging grid where I can be paying $0.25/kWh and the sucker beside me is paying $0.75/kWh for no good reason, just a biased system that will favor one consumer over another.

Places that charge for electricity by time generally do so because their area does not allow the resale of electricity, so they give it away and charge for the spot.

 

[Craigins]

As for "standards" there's also too many software standards – one consumer plugs in a Porsche and gets the Porsche price, another plugs in a Ford, and all the other EV marques – some sites will charge by the hour (absolutely absurd, but those states treat EV charging bays like parking spots) other sites charge by the kWh, some will be $0.10/kWh and some will be $1.00/kWh (or worse if time charges or idle fees are applied.)
If the USA were a democracy, I think the people would vote for one price and a subsidy for low-income, farmers, teachers, fire-fighters, nurses and other essential roles. I don't like the prospect of a charging grid where I can be paying $0.25/kWh and the sucker beside me is paying $0.75/kWh for no good reason, just a biased system that will favor one consumer over another.

I know the U.S. Govt protects its spending, but the other place to get a lot of wasted spending and focus it on domestic purposes is the military – take some of the money earmarked for buying needless multiples of the same weapons already stockpiled in multiples of every other country in the world combined, and instead spend it on training people in technology and construction jobs to build the infrastructure (and fix a few clean water systems, sewers, levy banks, bridges and train lines along the way.) A great way to get electricity grids spreading across a nation is to use the existing railway networks.

So 2 things. Price cannot be fixed across all charging locations (the cost to generate is different in different markets, and you have the transportation costs on top of that). If Porsche works out a contract with a charging company that lets their cars charge for cheaper, how is that a problem? Porsche would be paying "the difference" between the cost to the consumer and the actual cost (difference including $$$ and things like attracting business).

As for your railway comment, I don't really understand. Railways are owned by companies (BNSF, UP, etc), who are extremely territorial. Railways don't even expand to the same areas as interstates. Also confusing is your use of electricity grid vs charging grid. There are only 3 electric grids in the U.S.

 

[the long way downunder]

So 2 things. Price cannot be fixed across all charging locations (the cost to generate is different in different markets, and you have the transportation costs on top of that). If Porsche works out a contract with a charging company that lets their cars charge for cheaper, how is that a problem? Porsche would be paying "the difference" between the cost to the consumer and the actual cost (difference including $$$ and things like attracting business).

As for your railway comment, I don't really understand. Railways are owned by companies (BNSF, UP, etc), who are extremely territorial. Railways don't even expand to the same areas as interstates. Also confusing is your use of electricity grid vs charging grid. There are only 3 electric grids in the U.S.

The cost of generating electricity is a racket. If you look at energy prices across the USA, 90% of states are within 1 stdev of the average (about 11 cents) so EV charging should be somewhere around 11 cents nationwide. But, Tesla varies price and recently arbitrarily increased price … because of "demand" … i.e. it has not been building enough charging pedestals to keep up with vehicle sales. Maybe prices would be higher in Hawaii and Alaska for example. But for 90% of charging, prices should be close to say 15 cents … let them have a mere 50% gross margin … instead we see prices are $0.25 or $0.45 with peak rate increases, etc.
The problem with Porsche and Ford and others having "deals" is the bait-and-switch, the drug dealer "first hit is free" where users start off at a subsidized rate (during which both Porsche and Electrify America are profit sharing) which soon lapses and then the consumer is at the mercy of the proprietary system. Pricing by EA has been profiteering. Unless consumer protection agencies intervene, EV charging providers will become the new oil cartel with all the lies about the price of a barrel and the price at the pump and the seasonal blends, etc.
Almost all the EV charging sites will be private land. Whether it's train lines and train stations or consumer malls. The advantage of the railways is the straight and level, accessible terrain (and the need to improve all existing rail for high speed trains … for the USA to catch up to the 21st century.) Whether or not rail turns out to be feasible, I don't purport to know, but I suspect when you're adding charging stations along freeways, you want to find the confluence of utilities and services (i.e. the cities where freeways and railways converge.) I think you can see this where Tesla has already set its Supercharger locations. I've driven i80 from California to Montana to Colorado to Illinois. You get to see the logic behind their real estate choices and the compromises because they just didn't get cooperation from the given electricity provider. If the govt plan is developed by people who know what they're doing, they'll have to pass laws to allow EV charging stations to occupy prime real estate, not just provide the dollars to pour profits into the EV charging equipment vendors.

 

[camaroz1985]

My fear is the vast majority of these 500,000 chargers are going to be Level 2 chargers. Based on the money allocated, it would almost have to be.

That may help the population in some areas where they don't have the ability to charge at home, or off-street parking, but I don't think that will push the adoption of EVs. As much as I hate Walmart, if I didn't have the option to charge at home, at least you could go to an EA/Level 3 charger there while doing grocery shopping, etc. and you would get more range restored then plugging into a level 2 charger at a random location for several hours. If level 3 chargers are strategically located they could be beneficial to both road tripping and periodic charging for around town driving for those who can't charge at home.

 

[Dbeglor]

My fear is the vast majority of these 500,000 chargers are going to be Level 2 chargers. Based on the money allocated, it would almost have to be.

That may help the population in some areas where they don't have the ability to charge at home, or off-street parking, but I don't think that will push the adoption of EVs. As much as I hate Walmart, if I didn't have the option to charge at home, at least you could go to an EA/Level 3 charger there while doing grocery shopping, etc. and you would get more range restored then plugging into a level 2 charger at a random location for several hours. If level 3 chargers are strategically located they could be beneficial to both road tripping and periodic charging for around town driving for those who can't charge at home.

Perhaps, but for all we know, the majority of the investment into L2 Chargers will be grants/subsidies for apartment/condo/landlords to install them. That will have a MASSIVE effect on adoption, because those are the hardest converts right now.

It's far more efficient to invest in a home charger than one "out in the world". A L2 charger in a retail center costs multiples of what a L2 charger in a garage would be. The majority of people when fully adopted will rarely ever use a DCFC if they can charge overnight at home, so providing more access to that also reduces the exponentially higher cost of DCFC stations which can cost well into six figures.

 

[kurtlikevonnegut]

I'd like to see this effort go in two primary directions:

• Providing grants to states to install L3 chargers at existing Rest Areas and/or adding additional Rest Areas along Interstates
• Providing grants to travel center operators (Pilot, Bucees, TA, etc) to install L3 chargers on site

To me, if the focus is on increasing adoption it needs to be geared towards places that are within a mile of the interstate at a location where someone won't mind being stopped for 20-30 minutes. I think ideally a place with a L3 charger should afford you the ability to use the restroom, walk around, and get food/coffee 24/7. If you can do those 3 things while charging, a 20-30 minute stop every 4 hours is really not very onerous.

 

[Dbeglor]

I found this to be a useful video providing a glimpse into the economics of installing a station from a provider's perspective.

 

[Craigins]

I found this to be a useful video providing a glimpse into the economics of installing a station from a provider's perspective.

Yup, I'm hoping technology like https://ambri.com/technology/ can be commercialized. Then you could have a few containers of batteries at charging sites to augment charging.

But it isn't magic, you'd still be limited to the kwh capacity of the site over a time period. For example if the site in that video had cars charging 24/7, then the battery is worthless. Clearly we won't get to that point for a while, but still need to keep it in mind.

 

[jjwolf120]

The cost of generating electricity is a racket. If you look at energy prices across the USA, 90% of states are within 1 stdev of the average (about 11 cents) so EV charging should be somewhere around 11 cents nationwide.

It is more complicated than you think it is. I'm pretty sure Tom Moloughney has some video's that would be educational for you on the cost of running a charging station.

 

[sub]

If you look at energy prices across the USA, 90% of states are within 1 stdev of the average (about 11 cents) so EV charging should be somewhere around 11 cents nationwide. But, Tesla varies price and recently arbitrarily increased price … because of "demand" … i.e. it has not been building enough charging pedestals to keep up with vehicle sales.

I don't think you understand the meaning of "demand charge" as it relates to the price of electricity at EV charging stations.

The EV charging site's electric bill contains a fixed "demand charge" based on how much electricity the site is capable of using at any one time in addition to the per kWh billing for the electricity that is actually used. Since EV fast charge stations are capable of delivering a ton of power in a short time the fixed demand charges can be huge - even if the station is rarely used.

It is actually the opposite of "not building enough charging pedestals". The demand charge is a much bigger problem for a company that has built too many pedestals. The demand charge will be a much smaller component of the electric bill if the site is packed 24/7.

And no the demand charges are not remotely consistent across the country.

https://www.demandq.com/demand-charges-explained

 

[the long way downunder]

I don't think you understand the meaning of "demand charge" as it relates to the price of electricity at EV charging stations.

The EV charging site's electric bill contains a fixed "demand charge" based on how much electricity the site is capable of using at any one time in addition to the per kWh billing for the electricity that is actually used. Since EV fast charge stations are capable of delivering a ton of power in a short time the fixed demand charges can be huge - even if the station is rarely used.

It is actually the opposite of "not building enough charging pedestals". The demand charge is a much bigger problem for a company that has built too many pedestals. The demand charge will be a much smaller component of the electric bill if the site is packed 24/7.

And no the demand charges are not remotely consistent across the country.

https://www.demandq.com/demand-charges-explained

You're describing one grift in the racket.

 

[the long way downunder]

It is more complicated than you think it is. I'm pretty sure Tom Moloughney has some video's that would be educational for you on the cost of running a charging station.

Motor Week? : )

 

[Autolycus]

You're describing one grift in the racket.

If you think demand charges are a grift, then you don't understand how power is generated and distributed.

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